Are MPE Controllers a fad ?

[Echoes in the Attic]

I get very frustrated with Cypher 2, so tend to just ignore it these days. But I will try some percussion within Equator. Any particular favourites? I also might see if I can introduce some instability into FHP, to get even more expression

Tell me what troubles you in Cypher2 and I will alleviate all your problems. . You can PM me.

Here's one for you: The response of knobs is too slow. A preference to speed that up would make it more enjoyable. Going from using equator to using Cypher/Strobe is like suddenly being stuck in mud. If Roli are going to have these under their wing, they should try to get the responses to feel similar.

Equator and Cypher2/Strobe2 are build on completely different platforms. Different code base. Nothing is shared between these, so it's no surprise that the response may be different.

But, I actually like Cypher2's more finely balanced response. Equator's dials are more 'jerky' in comparison. In fact, it's the very first time I hear that Cypher2/Strobe2's dials feel like 'being stuck in mud'. ?

I use a lot of touch stuff. Touch screen on desktop, Surface Pro. Cypher and Strobe are the only ones I find really frustrating because it takes such a long screen and long movements for bigger changes, often need to grab it again.

[pdxindy]

In your example, where you want to create a bigger area around your initial strike, so that tiny finger movements on Linnstrument wouldn't trigger additional Y-axis modulation, I'd create the expression-curve shapes as seen in the photo below. Look at the SLIDE modulation source (the two arrows). That flat area around the centre point will do exactly what you desire, and small finger movements that stay within that flat area will not trigger any additional modulation (on the Y-axis). This flat-no-mod area can be very easily fine tuned, simply wiggle your finger on your playing surface, and watch the modulation node move left to right. Extend this zone as much as the node shows you.

Thanks for the informative reply...

I would like that functionality with the controller, not the synth.

I don't have Equator or Cypher 2 and none of the MPE synths I have include such curves... well, maybe in Bitwig's Grid...

[Noumena]

But yeah you're right that additional expressions would have nowhere to be recorded and stored in Bitwig. Too bad it wasn't like Cubase where you could have as many per voice note expressions as you want.

Yeah, Logic is like Cubase...

However, I'm fine with X, Y and Z... I couldn't control more than that in realtime anyway. Plus it takes plenty of work to make good presets just for those. And when done well, I am happy with the level of per voice control. I don't feel a need for more.

If I want anything, it will be a bit more subtlety in the hardware itself... which is where the Osmose comes in.

Bitwig has top level support for four per channel expressions, but all the MIDI CC controllers are available (polyphonically) in the modulation system. At least I'm fairly sure that they are: the MIDI CC modulator *should* work properly that way. I do not think that I have a way to test that atm outside of using the new round robin note selector hosting multiple mono instrument channels as a quasi-mpe device... and it works for that.

[himalaya]

@pdxindy

I understand. I guess each MPE controller ought to have these tools to manage ‘dimensional touch’.

Also, you point to the fact that none of your existing MPE synths have these ‘expression curves’. This is something that I have been trying to convey in various places, that an MPE-compatible synth ought to have the curves. Simply supporting the MIDI spec is not enough. I’ve already conveyed this to a few developers as well, but, I’m not sure the importance of ‘expression curves’ is fully understood.

[pdxindy]

@pdxindy

I understand. I guess each MPE controller ought to have these tools to manage ‘dimensional touch’.

Also, you point to the fact that none of your existing MPE synths have these ‘expression curves’. This is something that I have been trying to convey in various places, that an MPE-compatible synth ought to have the curves. Simply supporting the MIDI spec is not enough. I’ve already conveyed this to a few developers as well, but, I’m not sure the importance of ‘expression curves’ is fully understood.

A lot of synths can add multiple midi channel support internally and not have to change their GUI's... having to add expression curves means work on the GUI. I understand why there might be some resistance since MPE is fairly niche.

Seems more useful to have expression curves at the DAW level, then any MPE synth, or really any synth (using multiple instances) would be supported.

[BONES]

Yeah but different instruments will require different curves, so something like the Roli Dashboard is probably the best way of doing it.

Overall my impression is, that the Osmose looks much more natural to play than something like the Seaboard, which is still weird and somehow neither a real keyboard nor as versatile as the Linnstrument (for me - I only have a block).

I've had both and the Block is actually more "normal' to play than the Rise, mainly because the black keys are more defined.

Yeah, I personally find the Seaboard only okayish for slow padlike things or flute (although the EWI USB plays much better for wind instruments). It reacts very slow and non-sensitive to "normal" playing and although I know there are people even using it for drums, I can't imagine that myself.

Have you tried it? I think it is the best thing EVER for drums. I also find that with the right sensitivity settings, it is fine for normal playing without necessarily ruining it for the other stuff. It takes some effort to get it right but once you get there, you're set.

[himalaya]

Seems more useful to have expression curves at the DAW level, then any MPE synth, or really any synth (using multiple instances) would be supported.

I’d say the reverse actually, it is much more useful to have this kind of control per-patch, thus residing in the synth/plugin. This is simply because each patch may need a specific expression curve shape.

I guess a small set of suitable curve shapes could be arrived at and these could work as ‘templates’ that reside in a DAW or the controller, but then you’d have another set of patches to recall. First, your own synth patch, then a suitable ‘expression curve’ patch. For me, it’s a clunky solution.

This would also be a hindrance to smooth use of the factory presets, where most people want to load a preset and not worry about whether they have a suitable curve template set up, whether on the DAW level or the controller level. And of course, the same applies to people who do not use factory presets but prefer to use their own.

These ‘expression curves’ should simply be thought of with the same importance as an LFO. Or a normal envelope. We can’t imagine a synth to be without them, and similarly, MPE synths should not be without ‘expression curves’. The official MPE MIDI spec should have a note about this. In my view.

[pdxindy]

Seems more useful to have expression curves at the DAW level, then any MPE synth, or really any synth (using multiple instances) would be supported.

I’d say the reverse actually, it is much more useful to have this kind of control per-patch, thus residing in the synth/plugin. This is simply because each patch may need a specific expression curve shape.

I guess a small set of suitable curve shapes could be arrived at and these could work as ‘templates’ that reside in a DAW or the controller, but then you’d have another set of patches to recall. First, your own synth patch, then a suitable ‘expression curve’ patch. For me, it’s a clunky solution.

This would also be a hindrance to smooth use of the factory presets, where most people want to load a preset and not worry about whether they have a suitable curve template set up, whether on the DAW level or the controller level. And of course, the same applies to people who do not use factory presets but prefer to use their own.

These ‘expression curves’ should simply be thought of with the same importance as an LFO. Or a normal envelope. We can’t imagine a synth to be without them, and similarly, MPE synths should not be without ‘expression curves’. The official MPE MIDI spec should have a note about this. In my view.

I don't disagree... it's just I am doubtful that various synth developers (especially hardware) are going to add such expression curves anytime soon.

So I would welcome a DAW level solution that let me have such control for any of my MPE synths, even if it were a bit less convenient.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

By "Absolute mode", do you mean with full quantisation?

Oh no. The absolute mode allows you to play along the key-wave, triggering new values the higher you go. It's perfect for all manner of percussive sounds. Check out the bookmarked segment in this video. Watch how the sound changes when Heen Wah-Wai plays the C note (he then mangles the sound with the faders, but ignore this). You may need to play this video on YouTube (and not via the forum) to get the bookmark working.

https://youtu.be/5yzwoc1l5e0?t=185

Ok! That's cool!

Had totally missed that, so thanks

[himalaya]

I guess developers would add the expression curves more readily if they knew how important they are. I spoke with one dev recently, and they weren't aware of the many issues 'expression curves' solve. Developers look at the official MPE spec, implement it in their various ways, but because they are not aware of how all the dimensions need to be managed on the actual playing surface of your choice (Linnstrument, Seaboards, Soundplane, etc), no action is taken.

I've toyed with the idea of creating a universal document that highlights the 'why' and 'how' of 'expression curves'. It's almost like we need a petition .
ROLI/FXpansion synths all have it covered beautifully, but others may not.
Cypher2/Strobe2 even have the much needed 'slew' parameter attached to the expression curves. This allows further fine tuning of the way the curve/envelope responds to touch ('slew' is very useful with the Z-axis. Any continuous pressure mechanism can benefit from it).

However, certain synth do have tools that can be used for the same purpose as 'expression curves'. For example, Zebra2 has 'mod-maps' so does Logic's Alchemy. These can be used in the same way (although I haven't tried it).

But yeah, any and every way of managing 'dimension touch', is helpful, be it in the synth, DAW, or the controller.

[himalaya]

Ok! That's cool!

Had totally missed that, so thanks

Happy to help.
The 'absolute' mode is very, very cool. Not just for drum/percussive sounds. Playing a normal chromatic synth sound in the 'absolute' slide mode, can create some very effective timbral changes as you play each chord, since the position of each finger will trigger a different modulation value.

[Echoes in the Attic]

@pdxindy

I understand. I guess each MPE controller ought to have these tools to manage ‘dimensional touch’.

Also, you point to the fact that none of your existing MPE synths have these ‘expression curves’. This is something that I have been trying to convey in various places, that an MPE-compatible synth ought to have the curves. Simply supporting the MIDI spec is not enough. I’ve already conveyed this to a few developers as well, but, I’m not sure the importance of ‘expression curves’ is fully understood.

Yes I agree! Curves are very important for MPE expressions and are patch specific so it's something that needs to be part of the synth, as opposed to a controller. Though of controllers should always have their own adjustments as well for a global setting as a baseline behavior.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Tell me what troubles you in Cypher2 and I will alleviate all your problems. . You can PM me.

I will do. Give me a few days, and I should be able to find some examples to share

[Noumena]

Not just curves but lag processing. Pressure needs to have separate attack and decay lag controls. Where I am able to implement and tune this kind of thing (Bitwig Grid) the instruments that I make are much, much more expressive and responsive.

[Noumena]

Not just curves but lag processing or slew. Pressure needs to have separate attack and decay lag/slew controls. Where I am able to implement and tune this kind of thing (Bitwig Grid) the instruments that I make are much, much more expressive and responsive.