VST GUI Rant

[spaceman]

Spaceman Quit following me! Not only do you post in these threads I'm flooding, but now you post a screenshot of a GUI you designed, with that red devilish face I just saw in that "Undress Britney" Flash thing!!! And I'm sure that butt is in one of those sites that's open in another tab in my browser!!!

let' try a random word:

la resistance

[McLilith]

Spaceman Quit following me! Not only do you post in these threads I'm flooding...

That's a real Freudian slip, that one.

You just admitted to flooding this thread. I don't usually hear people referring to a bulk posting of worthwile and valuable information as flooding. No, that term is almost always reserved for extraneous and worthless dribble.


take care,
McLilith

[McLilith]

McLilith sadly you just shot yourself in the foot. Good analysis on J&H's draft for the GUI though. But that's all it is. Hadn't I been a lazy git, it would feature my GUI but that's another story.

Sorry JMH, but I didn't see anything on that web page that said the GUI was a mockup or anything to that effect. I had no way of knowing that this wasn't typical of J&H's skill level. If it's a mockup or a temporary skin, then things look even worse. The idea that he actually put that much extra effort into obscuring the parameters and legends, for a mere "first draft" is somewhat troubling.

And J&H had some validity in his question.

Which particular question of J&H are you referring to? I'll be happy to respond to it specifically, if you want.

Furthermore, he didn't claim being a professional, especially not in user interface / interactivity or graphic design.

Hmm, now that you mention it, maybe he didn't actually say that he was a professional anything. The manner in which he addressed me from the start lead me to believe that he considered himself to be either an expert or a professional, one with a condescending attitude at that.

I'm somewhat reluctant to go this way, but since you're now indicating you yourself are intimate with the subject... let's see some of your work?

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my

Better yet. Do a lot of interested parties a favor and make a draft for Devilswhisper GUI That would at least to a degree 'put your money where your mouth is'. (And this isn't meant in an offending way, just to give some validity to your post)

First, I need the permission of J&H and whoever created the current GUI, before I could publish an alternative work. Second, there is validity in my post. You yourself said I offered a good analysis of the GUI on J&H's web page. If there were no validity in my post, the analysis would have been worthless.

Funny thing is that you and Dystonia are turning this personal, not J&H. His questions were rather valid, and he kept most of the things on a general level. And he did try to make it clear that he's asking for examples instead of generalisations...

Hmm.. It's a virtue when J&H "kept most of the things on a general level", but it's a vice when I supposedly spoke in "generalisations"? Get a grip on where you stand. You're making no sense there.

He even went on to name a number of things relating to UI/GUI design that are commonly known as problems, I don't really see these issues being discussed.

Remind me about these issues of his that I have supposedly ignored. What exactly were they? I'll be happy to respond to them, if you point them out specifically.

Furthermore, he doesn't seem to be against you or Dystonia, whereas you both seem to think that way. Ok, there are remarks creeping into the discussion, but that's what happens when neither party even tries to follow each other...

Hmm... first you say that he isn't against me or Dystonia, but then you seem to hint that perhaps he was that way, and that it's perhaps my fault?

What's my part in this then... it's a good discussion but if it's going into this, people attacking each other as soon as their views are questioned instead of continuing the discussion that way, it's all lost.

That sound reasonable.

So please, try to see it that way. If your views and opinions are questioned or asked for clarification, that's not a personal attack against you. Snide remarks aside of course once someone begins that game

Sorry JMH, but my views were not simply questioned or disputed by J&H. They were sarcastically ridiculed. There is a difference.


take care,
McLilith

[jmh]

Spaceman Quit following me! Not only do you post in these threads I'm flooding...

That's a real Freudian slip, that one.

You just admitted to flooding this thread. I don't usually hear people referring to a bulk posting of worthwile and valuable information as flooding. No, that term is almost always reserved for extraneous and worthless dribble.


take care,
McLilith

Actually it was intentional in a selfsarcastic way. Now I'm starting to wonder if that means you'll ignore my last posts and the points I raised...

Besides, Freudian slips are normally of sexual nature. I'm the first one to admit I want you badly, but I thought I'd reserve that for later, perhaps a PM with a few pictures of me and my webcam address

Regards and horny,

JMH

[11011011]

I believe that "flooding" remark was an attempt at self-deprecating humor. Lighten up.

Let me go middle of the road here and say the mark of a good design is the balance between form and function. Even the Spaceman examples, while crude, are not "bad" design by any means. The same with the Delay Lama, an effect which has very few options to tweak. Since those options are visible, and easy to mess with, the designers were free to have a lot of fun with the rest of the window.

That said, I totally agree that low contrast choices for text and indicators is not a good idea, even in a "wacky" design.

I think button and knob placement in general is the big gotcha. A more complicated synth requires a LOT of design work, because the UI complexity can go non-linear on you very quickly. And here is where aesthetics can cause problems, in the form of stacking knobs because they look "pretty" that way, while making it harder for the user to figure out crucial things like signal path.

As for 3D stuff -- why not? We're making music, and having cool and pretty gear can in a way be inspirational.

[McLilith]

I believe that "flooding" remark was an attempt at self-deprecating humor. Lighten up.

;);););););););););););););););););););););););););););););)
;););)I was light. Didn't you see my winking emoticons?;););););)
;);););););););););););););););););););););););););););););)

Let me go middle of the road here and say the mark of a good design is the balance between form and function. Even the Spaceman examples, while crude, are not "bad" design by any means. The same with the Delay Lama, an effect which has very few options to tweak. Since those options are visible, and easy to mess with, the designers were free to have a lot of fun with the rest of the window.

That said, I totally agree that low contrast choices for text and indicators is not a good idea, even in a "wacky" design.

I think button and knob placement in general is the big gotcha. A more complicated synth requires a LOT of design work, because the UI complexity can go non-linear on you very quickly. And here is where aesthetics can cause problems, in the form of stacking knobs because they look "pretty" that way, while making it harder for the user to figure out crucial things like signal path.

As for 3D stuff -- why not? We're making music, and having cool and pretty gear can in a way be inspirational.

That was a very reasonable post. I certainly didn't spot anything in that that I don't generally agree with.

Just in case you might think that I don't like the 3D look, that's not really the case. I just want it to be better executed. I like both the 2D and the 3D approaches, if they're done well.

take care,
McLilith

[McLilith]

I'm somewhat reluctant to go this way, but since you're now indicating you yourself are intimate with the subject... let's see some of your work?

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my

Oops! I'm sorry about that. That answer got cut short somehow. What I meant to say was this:

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my critique of J&H's GUI as evidence that I know what I'm talking about. There is also my critique of several other GUIs earlier in this thread. From the specifics of those critiques, can't you form an accurate opinion of whether I know what I'm talking about? You yourself, said that I did a good analysis of the J&H GUI. Haven't I made the impression on you yet that I'm raising some valid points here?


take care,
McLilith

[Sicklecell666]

I f**king 0wn you wanna be graphic pros..My All Powerfull Crunk-Ball GUI brings you to your knees.

[jmh]

Oh my... ok.

Sorry JMH, but I didn't see anything on that web page that said the GUI was a mockup or anything to that effect. I had no way of knowing that this wasn't typical of J&H's skill level. If it's a mockup or a temporary skin, then things look even worse. The idea that he actually put that much extra effort into obscuring the parameters and legends, for a mere "first draft" is somewhat troubling.

Ahemm. Ok, it's not said on the page, I'll give you that. But the idea that a quick draft of a plugin is more troubling that if it was the actual GUI? Excuse me?

Which particular question of J&H are you referring to? I'll be happy to respond to it specifically, if you want.

Rather than going that way, it would serve the purpose better if you went on and read what he wrote again. I tend to see several points that could be discussed, but perhaps that's just my interpretation.

Hmm, not that you mention it, maybe he didn't actually say that he was a professional anything. The manner in which he addressed me from the start lead me to believe that he considered himself to be either an expert or a professional, one with a condescending attitude at that.

Well, I think we got that clear then. He's a coder. Therefore he doesn't claim to be something else. As for his attitude, I get what you're saying, I'm just trying to offer the possibility that before things went dirty, maybe you misunderstood what he said? (that's been known to happen and that's why I'm trying to make myself important, by translating this to people

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my

Now that's what I'm talking about baybeeh

Better yet. Do a lot of interested parties a favor and make a draft for Devilswhisper GUI That would at least to a degree 'put your money where your mouth is'. (And this isn't meant in an offending way, just to give some validity to your post)

First, I need the permission of J&H and whoever created the current GUI, before I could publish an alternative work. Second, there is validity in my post. You yourself said I offered a good analysis of the GUI on J&H's web page. If there were no validity in my post, the analysis would have been worthless.

Not really. You're free to make a new work of art as long as it's not derived from the old one. You see all the relevant features and such so you can make a suggestion of your own.

Second. Just wrong. You lost the validity of the analysis in the sense that you're analyzing it as being the UI of the plugin, which it is not. It's just a mockup, hence it was a wasted effort. But where the worth is, lies in the style and manner you did the analysis in. Very detailed, lots of points. So, you see, just because it's invalid since there is no plugin of that looks (this is an assumption based on knowing that was just a draft) and therefore serves no purpose when it comes to improving or changing it, doesn't mean the analysis itself couldn't be good.

Put it another way. It's a good analysis though you're analysing nothing more than a mockup of a plugin. The real validity anyways come from this: you're analysing the user interface as an expert, but we have no knowledge of you and your skills, education or profession. Therefore, something that gives as an explanation to why are you going into detail like this for any other reason than just trying to tear J&H apart would serve a purpose. And yes, it would give the validity to it I was referring to.

Jesus, I'm losing the little point I had left in this matter already

Hmm.. It's a virtue when J&H "kept most of the things on a general level", but it's a vice when I supposedly spoke in "generalisations"? Get a grip on where you stand. You're making no sense there.

Deliberately twisting words around or misunderstanding me?

Generally in J&H's case meant not pointing any finger or naming any names. I didn't see him start by saying "McLilith, you're full of s**t" nor did I see him say that to Dystonia. Therefore I do not understand why either of you are claiming he got personal first.

The second generalisation then... he meant what he meant. You're discrediting any and every plugin and the developers when you're just saying generally that the interfaces are bad. He asked you to go into details with examples. Which you did. Which was nice.

I don't blame you for misunderstanding me though, I'm rambling But please, sweeping two issues like this together because of the word generalisation exists in both...

Remind me about these issues of his that I have supposedly ignored. What exactly were they? I'll be happy to respond to them, if you point them out specifically.

Yet again, should I do the reading for you? I saw a lot of sensible, UI design related issues mentioned by him. You're free to ignore the parts you don't feel like discussing, I'm just kind of surprised that people ignored everything he said and instead went the route of "he has an attitude problem".

Furthermore, he doesn't seem to be against you or Dystonia, whereas you both seem to think that way. Ok, there are remarks creeping into the discussion, but that's what happens when neither party even tries to follow each other...

Hmm... first you say that he isn't against me or Dystonia, but then you seem to hint that perhaps he was that way, and that it's perhaps my fault?

Now this is just getting weird. Seriously, are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

I'll put it another way. J&H didn't attack against you in the beginning. He did however respond in the manner you both are worried about later on. What I am saying is that before things went down the toilet, he wasn't against either of you in any way. More like you people turned this thing around as if he was attacking you two personally. I'm going to excercise the same right as you and not bother to read again, so I'd be interested in seeing the part where he deliberately started without no reason whatsoever calling you names out of the blue.

So please, try to see it that way. If your views and opinions are questioned or asked for clarification, that's not a personal attack against you. Snide remarks aside of course once someone begins that game

Sorry JMH, but my views were not simply questioned or disputed by J&H. They were sarcastically ridiculed. There is a difference.

And that's what it all boils down to. Before he "got personal" and "ridiculed" you, he had some valid points and instead of taking the discussion to that direction, you chose to go the "he attacked me" way.
THAT's what I'm trying to say.

It doesn't matter how courteously and politely this is handled, it's just weird to see it go down this way at all. I'd like to think you and Dystonia aren't just as thick skinned as some others, and that's all there is to it...

But hey, tell you what... since you're the one accusing him of all this, could you do the right thing and post a similar post as we're now doing, which illustrates how J&H ridiculed you for no reason, started calling you names and so on? At least that would prove your point, the one I'm desperately disagreeing with

Last... don't get me wrong. I love these sort of discussions It always helps when the other party is being rational and polite, hence I'm engaged in this with you. Dunno if it serves any purpose to the thread though

Oh, wait, there's more =)

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my critique of J&H's GUI as evidence that I know what I'm talking about. There is also my critique of several other GUIs earlier in this thread. From the specifics of those critiques, can't you form an accurate opinion of whether I know what I'm talking about? You yourself, said that I did a good analysis of the J&H GUI. Haven't I made the impression on you yet that I'm raising some valid points here?

Yes and no. You see, the thing is that from your analysis I get the feeling you do know something about this. So naturally, I'm interested in knowing more. For all I care, I could be talking to a dog, but at the same time I could be as well talking to my favorite UI designer. Wonders of the internet

I guess I was asking it mainly though because of this... You're accusing J&H of things he didn't say in his postings, he didn't imply or you just misinterpreted. Seeing you shred the mockup made me think "but why? If he does know his stuff, why just complaints and moaning? If he doesn't, damn good work". You accused him of being elitistic and not even considering who he's talking to. I saw the same in your responses and I'm surely guilty of doing the exact same thing But my main reason is still curiosity... if not for anything else, then to just separate you from all the self-claimed designers present on KVR =)

Now that I've totally lost the point... tea break and then back

And for the others... seems like you're interpreting this as a fight. From my standpoint, this is still discussion, and frankly rather good at that. I don't have any negative feelings toward McLilith, quite the opposite, despite possible disagreement he has so far appeared more intellect and well mannered and thus I'm considering this discussion good and worth it

Regards,

JMH

[Sicklecell666]

Oh my, what stupid is that?

.

Learn some proper Engrish, ya f**king talking monkey..



Your GUI design looks great, but who gives a f**k when you're an arrogant prick that has no command over the words you use?

I hope you aren't writing the manual..I'd probably need Mad Cow Disease to be able to un-f**k what the hell you're saying..

[jmh]

Good to see Sicklecell is keeping things rational...

Do you people now see what I'm getting at?

Hell, J&H could take it up the tailpipe for you people, then buy you a house, father your children so you don't have to touch a female, do all your work and your laundry, and still, if he didn't say "please" every time a bunch of sad people like me with too much time on their hands will start complaining about him...

Are you getting my point now?-)

Regards,

JMH

(not J&H even though we have two same letters in our names at exact same positions)

[spaceman]

Oh my... ok.

Sorry JMH, but I didn't see anything on that web page that said the GUI was a mockup or anything to that effect. I had no way of knowing that this wasn't typical of J&H's skill level. If it's a mockup or a temporary skin, then things look even worse. The idea that he actually put that much extra effort into obscuring the parameters and legends, for a mere "first draft" is somewhat troubling.

Ahemm. Ok, it's not said on the page, I'll give you that. But the idea that a quick draft of a plugin is more troubling that if it was the actual GUI? Excuse me?

Which particular question of J&H are you referring to? I'll be happy to respond to it specifically, if you want.

Rather than going that way, it would serve the purpose better if you went on and read what he wrote again. I tend to see several points that could be discussed, but perhaps that's just my interpretation.

Hmm, not that you mention it, maybe he didn't actually say that he was a professional anything. The manner in which he addressed me from the start lead me to believe that he considered himself to be either an expert or a professional, one with a condescending attitude at that.

Well, I think we got that clear then. He's a coder. Therefore he doesn't claim to be something else. As for his attitude, I get what you're saying, I'm just trying to offer the possibility that before things went dirty, maybe you misunderstood what he said? (that's been known to happen and that's why I'm trying to make myself important, by translating this to people

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my

Now that's what I'm talking about baybeeh

Better yet. Do a lot of interested parties a favor and make a draft for Devilswhisper GUI That would at least to a degree 'put your money where your mouth is'. (And this isn't meant in an offending way, just to give some validity to your post)

First, I need the permission of J&H and whoever created the current GUI, before I could publish an alternative work. Second, there is validity in my post. You yourself said I offered a good analysis of the GUI on J&H's web page. If there were no validity in my post, the analysis would have been worthless.

Not really. You're free to make a new work of art as long as it's not derived from the old one. You see all the relevant features and such so you can make a suggestion of your own.

Second. Just wrong. You lost the validity of the analysis in the sense that you're analyzing it as being the UI of the plugin, which it is not. It's just a mockup, hence it was a wasted effort. But where the worth is, lies in the style and manner you did the analysis in. Very detailed, lots of points. So, you see, just because it's invalid since there is no plugin of that looks (this is an assumption based on knowing that was just a draft) and therefore serves no purpose when it comes to improving or changing it, doesn't mean the analysis itself couldn't be good.

Put it another way. It's a good analysis though you're analysing nothing more than a mockup of a plugin. The real validity anyways come from this: you're analysing the user interface as an expert, but we have no knowledge of you and your skills, education or profession. Therefore, something that gives as an explanation to why are you going into detail like this for any other reason than just trying to tear J&H apart would serve a purpose. And yes, it would give the validity to it I was referring to.

Jesus, I'm losing the little point I had left in this matter already

Hmm.. It's a virtue when J&H "kept most of the things on a general level", but it's a vice when I supposedly spoke in "generalisations"? Get a grip on where you stand. You're making no sense there.

Deliberately twisting words around or misunderstanding me?

Generally in J&H's case meant not pointing any finger or naming any names. I didn't see him start by saying "McLilith, you're full of s**t" nor did I see him say that to Dystonia. Therefore I do not understand why either of you are claiming he got personal first.

The second generalisation then... he meant what he meant. You're discrediting any and every plugin and the developers when you're just saying generally that the interfaces are bad. He asked you to go into details with examples. Which you did. Which was nice.

I don't blame you for misunderstanding me though, I'm rambling But please, sweeping two issues like this together because of the word generalisation exists in both...

Remind me about these issues of his that I have supposedly ignored. What exactly were they? I'll be happy to respond to them, if you point them out specifically.

Yet again, should I do the reading for you? I saw a lot of sensible, UI design related issues mentioned by him. You're free to ignore the parts you don't feel like discussing, I'm just kind of surprised that people ignored everything he said and instead went the route of "he has an attitude problem".

Furthermore, he doesn't seem to be against you or Dystonia, whereas you both seem to think that way. Ok, there are remarks creeping into the discussion, but that's what happens when neither party even tries to follow each other...

Hmm... first you say that he isn't against me or Dystonia, but then you seem to hint that perhaps he was that way, and that it's perhaps my fault?

Now this is just getting weird. Seriously, are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

I'll put it another way. J&H didn't attack against you in the beginning. He did however respond in the manner you both are worried about later on. What I am saying is that before things went down the toilet, he wasn't against either of you in any way. More like you people turned this thing around as if he was attacking you two personally. I'm going to excercise the same right as you and not bother to read again, so I'd be interested in seeing the part where he deliberately started without no reason whatsoever calling you names out of the blue.

So please, try to see it that way. If your views and opinions are questioned or asked for clarification, that's not a personal attack against you. Snide remarks aside of course once someone begins that game

Sorry JMH, but my views were not simply questioned or disputed by J&H. They were sarcastically ridiculed. There is a difference.

And that's what it all boils down to. Before he "got personal" and "ridiculed" you, he had some valid points and instead of taking the discussion to that direction, you chose to go the "he attacked me" way.
THAT's what I'm trying to say.

It doesn't matter how courteously and politely this is handled, it's just weird to see it go down this way at all. I'd like to think you and Dystonia aren't just as thick skinned as some others, and that's all there is to it...

But hey, tell you what... since you're the one accusing him of all this, could you do the right thing and post a similar post as we're now doing, which illustrates how J&H ridiculed you for no reason, started calling you names and so on? At least that would prove your point, the one I'm desperately disagreeing with

Last... don't get me wrong. I love these sort of discussions It always helps when the other party is being rational and polite, hence I'm engaged in this with you. Dunno if it serves any purpose to the thread though

Oh, wait, there's more =)

Instead of a body of my work, I offer you my critique of J&H's GUI as evidence that I know what I'm talking about. There is also my critique of several other GUIs earlier in this thread. From the specifics of those critiques, can't you form an accurate opinion of whether I know what I'm talking about? You yourself, said that I did a good analysis of the J&H GUI. Haven't I made the impression on you yet that I'm raising some valid points here?

Yes and no. You see, the thing is that from your analysis I get the feeling you do know something about this. So naturally, I'm interested in knowing more. For all I care, I could be talking to a dog, but at the same time I could be as well talking to my favorite UI designer. Wonders of the internet

I guess I was asking it mainly though because of this... You're accusing J&H of things he didn't say in his postings, he didn't imply or you just misinterpreted. Seeing you shred the mockup made me think "but why? If he does know his stuff, why just complaints and moaning? If he doesn't, damn good work". You accused him of being elitistic and not even considering who he's talking to. I saw the same in your responses and I'm surely guilty of doing the exact same thing But my main reason is still curiosity... if not for anything else, then to just separate you from all the self-claimed designers present on KVR =)

Now that I've totally lost the point... tea break and then back

And for the others... seems like you're interpreting this as a fight. From my standpoint, this is still discussion, and frankly rather good at that. I don't have any negative feelings toward McLilith, quite the opposite, despite possible disagreement he has so far appeared more intellect and well mannered and thus I'm considering this discussion good and worth it

Regards,

JMH

can you extend on that a bit please?

[Sicklecell666]

Good to see Sicklecell is keeping things rational...

I fail to see what a discussion on GUI design has to do with insulting the Saligia project's incomplete website..it's petty & childish & more than earned the response I gave it.

Couple that with the usual intolerably shitty & condescending attitude that prick's got & yeah, I WILL be rise to the bait..

I'm curious why you are defending him with such vigor..but I'll leave it at that out of respect to you as you're nowhere near as offensive as he is..

Unless you'd like to change that, of course..

[jmh]

Good to see Sicklecell is keeping things rational...

I fail to see what a discussion on GUI design has to do with insulting the Saligia project's incomplete website..it's petty & childish & more than earned the response I gave it.

So that was insulting to you? Huh? His point came across to me. A website with nothing than picture on it. Doesn't say a thing about the designer's skills. It's what I normally label a 'snide remark'. In this sense, a punch below the belt. But serves a reason. People are giving a lot of shit for no reason to him, when he at least has some work to show where he's coming from. Therefore I found your reaction a bit extreme.

Couple that with the usual intolerably shitty & condescending attitude that prick's got & yeah, I WILL be rise to the bait..

Good to see someone's serving the public with such a novel cause. But if you read the thread from the beginning, you'd see why I'm doing the opposite

I'm curious why you are defending him with such vigor..but I'll leave it at that out of respect to you as you're nowhere near as offensive as he is..

Thanks... I guess. Two reasons: I relate to him in the sense that he gets shit thrown at him when people deliberately misunderstand him, and take everything he says as a personal insult. I hate that. Ok, make it three reasons. I also hate it when a possibly good thread goes into waste just because he opens his mouth. No matter what comes out, you as in the lot turn it around him without even trying to get what he's saying. No wonder the mudslinging begins every time. The third reason: in a sense I owe him, I failed to deliver a GUI job I offered to him. Sure, I don't really owe him, but I know him on some level, and hate seeing him getting mistreated every friggin' time, especially when it's people just jumping into threads to badmouth him.

Make it four reasons. I can't stand the general twofacedness on KVR, where it's ok to just slag off person x but at the same time, it's ok to do it to others, by the very same people who have an issue with people slagging others off.

Unless you'd like to change that, of course..

I'll do my best I doubt I'll succeed though, unless I make spelling mistakes or something else as trivial as that

Seriously, judging between the two of you... a pot calling the kettle, and all the usual related phrases... At least he doesn't just jump on people like that.

Regards and slowly getting really amused,

JMH

[spaceman]

aaah look... a kitten