VST GUI Rant

[McLilith]

First, let me say that I simply don't have the time to respond to everything at this particular moment. I'll follow up with another post at a later time. For now, just a few "highlights" so you'll at least know that I'm reading what you wrote.

I don't blame you for misunderstanding me though, I'm rambling But please, sweeping two issues like this together because of the word generalisation exists in both...

Well, they are your words, and they do appear in the same paragraph. I would think you had swept them together fairly well yourself.

Your explanation did help clarify things. Thanks.

Remind me about these issues of his that I have supposedly ignored. What exactly were they? I'll be happy to respond to them, if you point them out specifically.

Yet again, should I do the reading for you? I saw a lot of sensible, UI design related issues mentioned by him. You're free to ignore the parts you don't feel like discussing, I'm just kind of surprised that people ignored everything he said and instead went the route of "he has an attitude problem".

Come on, it seems like there are particular issues you want me to discuss. What are those particular issues? I don't want to have to read and respond to each and every line that J&H wrote, in order to satisfy this hunger of yours. (No, not that hunger. )

I'm really starting to run out of time to spend on this, so please let me know which particular issues you wanted discussed, okay?

But hey, tell you what... since you're the one accusing him of all this, could you do the right thing and post a similar post as we're now doing, which illustrates how J&H ridiculed you for no reason, started calling you names and so on? At least that would prove your point, the one I'm desperately disagreeing with

It's odd that several other people noticed his tone of ridicule, but you didn't. I'll get back to you with a followup post about what exactly he said that I found to be "counter-productive" and demeaning.

Last... don't get me wrong. I love these sort of discussions It always helps when the other party is being rational and polite, hence I'm engaged in this with you. Dunno if it serves any purpose to the thread though

I'm pretty sure it doesn't serve the purpose of this thread, but I'll not get to advance the purpose of this thread until I get past this, or so it seems.

Yes and no. You see, the thing is that from your analysis I get the feeling you do know something about this. So naturally, I'm interested in knowing more. For all I care, I could be talking to a dog, but at the same time I could be as well talking to my favorite UI designer. Wonders of the internet

I guess I was asking it mainly though because of this... You're accusing J&H of things he didn't say in his postings, he didn't imply or you just misinterpreted.

I don't think I misinterpreted J&H, but I'll look over this long thread again, and check for any signs that I did. Remember, it's entirely possible that he said something in an awkward or ambiguous manner, or said something he didn't really mean to say. If that's the case, it certainly isn't my fault that any "confusion" came into the conversation. It's also possible that he's just a rude person, and you just don't see that. Have you ever considered that possibliity?

There is certainly some justification for the notion, since several other people have gotten that impression.

Seeing you shred the mockup made me think "but why?

It was because of the way that he was ridiculing the value of Dystonia's graphics work without even first seeing any of it. When J&H started on the topic of Dystonia's web site, I decided to click on the "www" link next to J&H's forum name. I thought that I would extend more courtesty to J&H than he was extending to Dystonia, by at least viewing some of J&H's work before I critiqued it.

After I saw the web page and the GUI, I gave a blunt, but honest assessment of his web site and GUI. I absolutely believe he made himself "fair game" for the frankness of my critique. He certainly didn't seem to feel any need to "sugar-coat" his comments toward us, so I didn't sugar-coat the critique.

It seemed fair to me.

...I don't have any negative feelings toward McLilith, quite the opposite...

You're starting to scare me a little...


McLilith

[McLilith]

aaah look... a kitten

Thanks, for that.

[Sicklecell666]

aaah look... a kitten

Indeed..

[Sicklecell666]

It was because of the way that he was ridiculing the value of Dystonia's graphics work without even first seeing any of it. When J&H started on the topic of Dystonia's web site, I decided to click on the "www" link next to J&H's forum name. I thought that I would extend more courtesty to J&H than he was extending to Dystonia, by at least viewing some of J&H's work before I critiqued it.

Something needs to be clarified here. The assumption that the link in Dystonia_ek's sig is his website is an erroneous one. That link, & mine as well link to the preview page for the Seven Deadly Sins project I am coordinating between myself, Dystonia_ek, & 14 other artists. The web graphics were done by Dystonia_ek for our project on his own time & while the work is fantastic to me, I fail to see it standing on the same level as the work he does professionally for a living. To see an example of that, all you need to do is look at the SAW movie poster to see Dystonia_ek at work..

Nor did Dystonia_ek claim to be a GUI designer to my knowledge. He simply made observations as an ARTIST that were brushed aside in your comrades overabundance of self-love..

*end rant*

[spaceman]

aaah look... a kitten

Indeed..

I knew my cat was just a stupid lazy no-good meowing achilles heel biting piece of fluff.. can't even teach it to use the remote

[jmh]

Spaceman When we get down to it with McLilith, I want you to videotape it (but bring a stand, I'm sure neither will mind you jumping in).

McLilith No sweat... There aren't any particular issues J&H raised I'd love to see discussed, it's more the whole thread. He did have some points and issues about UI design and we all got into this mess and disregarded that part of his posts... which were besides your first post and the excellent examples, the only real content in this thread.
We're approaching something here now I still disagree on the rudeness part since he wasn't being rude towards anyone particular without reason (he does really explain his points), but at least we're starting to agree it could be an issue of interpretation...

As for other people noticing how "rude" he was... that happens in every thread where he says anything, hence I opened my mouth in here. Majority agreeing on an issue never means the majority is right about issue, eat sh*t, 10 billion flies can't be wrong, and all that

I'd like to see the UI design related things discussed, really, even after all this flooding and rambling You've raised good points, I just think J&H did as well, put along the lines of "did you consider that you have to take all these things into consideration" and so on. I just commit noise to this while I gather thoughts in my head

(this part to everybody then)

As for the thread... J&H didn't attack anyone personally, read it again and this time spend some time. He started by asking examples instead of rambling. And also explained why he feels this way. You call it rude, I call it direct. In my eyes he was being direct (as in straightforward and honest) until that cheap shot towards Dystonia. Which can be explained simply by reading how Dystonia first justifies himself for some reason by saying he's a graphic designer and J&H joking about this as the website doesn't in its current state reflect his skills whatsoever.

McLilith then does the analysis on Devilswhisper since he feels it's just fair. Despite that, I found that more personal than anything that happened before.

J&H hasn't really even contributed that much to this thread but we still have people crying about his actions, jeez. I've done most of the talking here, splitting hairs with McLilith, trying to make it clear that people are just overreacting and (assumedly doing it deliberately) misinterpreting J&H and attacking him for it.

As far as backgrounds go, J&H is a developer. With work to prove it. McLilith has knowledge in the UI/GUI department, not clear what or how much, but I assume he'll mention it sooner or later. Dystonia is claiming to be a graphic artist but currently there's no work being shown. Me, I have no inspiration to write music right now so I just flood random threads with my stream of consciousness (I'm also a graphic designer/web designer/fine arts graphician/photographer/musician with years upon years spent on these subjects and no website for showing off my work). Then there's Sicklecell666 who's just defending a friend/associate and will kick asses if let loose, and finally Spaceman whose company I've enjoyed until I noticed he can not only read my mind but has access to my computer too.

Does that sum it up?

In case someone asks... people's backgrounds were largely irrelevant until they were questioned to substantiate their views and opinions. I'm asking things out of curiosity, J&H made a joke about an irrelevant "I know since I'm a pro" comment, McLilith is keeping himself a mystery since he knows how much that turns me on... And J&H not only has released a thing or three in the past but will release more in the future.

Oh and we all have a mental issue or two

Any questions?

Regards,

Yo momma so JMH

[spaceman]

aaah look.. a kitten

[Sicklecell666]

(this part to everybody then)

In my eyes he was being direct (as in straightforward and honest) until that cheap shot towards Dystonia. Which can be explained simply by reading how Dystonia first justifies himself for some reason by saying he's a graphic designer and J&H joking about this as the website doesn't in its current state reflect his skills whatsoever.

See my post above. Dystonia made no mention whatsoever of the saligia site as indicitive of his graphic potential. j&h drew his own conclusions & made an ass out of himself.

Simple.

Also for the record, Dystonia executed EXACTLY what I wanted image-wise, so if there is a fault in the design, it's something to directly insult ME over, not Dystonia..Which lays bare my motivation for posting in this thread. I fail to see what that site's artwork has to do with ANYTHING about GUI design..

Are you insinuating only GUI designers are permitted to make observations on GUI art?

pfft..

whatever..

[spaceman]

In my eyes he was being direct (as in straightforward and honest) until that cheap shot towards Dystonia. Which can be explained simply by reading how Dystonia first justifies himself for some reason by saying he's a graphic designer and J&H joking about this as the website doesn't in its current state reflect his skills whatsoever.

stick a pen up your arse and you can call yourself a graphic designer these days.. who are you to judge who qualifies as a graphic designer and who doesn't? and if you try.. don't judge it on one image you don't even know a f**k about

[jmh]

Something needs to be clarified here. The assumption that the link in Dystonia_ek's sig is his website is an erroneous one. That link, & mine as well link to the preview page for the Seven Deadly Sins project I am coordinating between myself, Dystonia_ek, & 14 other artists. The web graphics were done by Dystonia_ek for our project on his own time & while the work is fantastic to me, I fail to see it standing on the same level as the work he does professionally for a living. To see an example of that, all you need to do is look at the SAW movie poster to see Dystonia_ek at work..

Nor did Dystonia_ek claim to be a GUI designer to my knowledge. He simply made observations as an ARTIST that were brushed aside in your comrades overabundance of self-love..

*end rant*

Ok. Website issue cleared. Now, if he spoke as an artist... lemme do some quothing

Um, I'm a graphic design professional, and I agree with McLilith on this one - function should define form in this case. Many GUI designers seem to get far too wrapped up in the bells and whistles - usability should always be the prime concern.

That's really fine.
And something is true. But merely to rant is not the key.

He said he's a graphic design professional. That does open up the possibility to talk about it then. Had he said "I'm an artist", I would have responded "so this discussion isn't for you then, UI design isn't art".

(My opinion coming from being a traditional artist with a degree who turned totally into digital world a long time ago).

You know, J&H wasn't even claiming anything opposite to "function defines form" or what McLilith wrote. He was asking for SUBSTANCE, in the form of examples. And he was asking some SUBSTANCE to his comments so he (and the rest of us) can decide whether McLilith knows everything that goes into UI/GUI design.

BTW: Can you explain me for instance (as a top greaphics designer), where the functionality (even the expedience), for instance, of your website is ?

And here's where he hits below the punch and appears as "rude". But there's a tad of validity as in "so you SAY you're a professional, but that's all we have, and we have a lot of people saying that nowadays". You see J&H checked out a link in his signature. Nothing more to it. Awfully rude? I don't see it that way. Useless? You bet. But a mistake others have made in this thread as well.

I'm not a GUI designer myself, I work in the film industry.

I fail to see that you are making any rational or consistent points in your posts. Why do you bother?

Which clarified this particular issue. I could of course say that a graphic designer most likely won't be a professional in UI design, just as he's not automatically a professional in web design either.

As for Dystonia then failing to see any consistency or rationale in J&H's postings and asking him "why bother?"... that's why I'm here making all of you tired of my ramblings. There *is* rationale in there and there *is* consistency. You just need to read his initial posts, the biggest "crime" he does is asking if people know what they are talking about. And why is J&H "rude" if the reader doesn't get the point?-)

"brushed aside in your comrades overabundance of self-love"... I see it as saying "put your money where your mouth is", which again I don't necessarily judge as rude.


I guess that's it for now, more tea

Or not, there's more...

See my post above. Dystonia made no mention whatsoever of the saligia site as indicitive of his graphic potential. j&h drew his own conclusions & made an ass out of himself.

No he didn't. J&H also didn't shred his stuff apart, you just misunderstood him as if he was doing something horribly wrong that leads into death sentence even in cililised countries.

Also for the record, Dystonia executed EXACTLY what I wanted image-wise, so if there is a fault in the design, it's something to directly insult ME over, not Dystonia..Which lays bare my motivation for posting in this thread. I fail to see what that site's artwork has to do with ANYTHING about GUI design..

Exactly. Like I said, J&H's remark wasn't really justified, but I'm saying you're reading more into than there was

There's really no need to get into name calling because of this?

Are you insinuating only GUI designers are permitted to make observations on GUI art?

pfft..

whatever..

Nope. And neither was J&H. FINALLY we are getting somewhere. Almost to the poing J&H was making: "do you know enough about UI/GUI design to comment on it?"

EVERYBODY is entitled to have opinions. That part is simple. Everybody's opinion on how something looks is equally meaningful in my eyes. But when it gets deeper than that, I want to know if the other party really knows the subject that's about to be discussed. To use your friend as an example... We could discuss a lot of issues professionally since we're likely have knowledge in same issues. But if I started discussing something with him he's familiar with and judging from what I'm saying I am not, he's entitled to question me about it. And vice versa, I could talk making music with you but if you started critisizing how simplistic C64 compositions sound, I'd ask if you're really even familiar with the subject since I've been into that stuff from '85

Spaceman just as I was about to think we're all clear...

"stick a pen up your arse and you can call yourself a graphic designer these days.. who are you to judge who qualifies as a graphic designer and who doesn't? and if you try.. don't judge it on one image you don't even know a f**k about"

The first sentence is exactly what I've been saying.
The second then: anyone who a) is a graphic designer b) can actually validate it one way or another. As for the rest... I guess that's not directed at me If it was, I'd say "lighten up, as it was just a joke where the content of the message is something like 'wouldn't mind seeing your work since you claim to be a professional, but didn't find it"'

Today's lesson in reading text was brought to you by

JMH

[Improv]

can you extend on that a bit please?

Ok. He said she said he said they said.

That about sums it up!

[jmh]

Who said that?

JMH

[Sicklecell666]

Who said that?

JMH

You camped or something?

[ouroboros]

aaah look... a kitten

Indeed..

You find some funny stuff.

[jmh]

Who said that?

JMH

You camped or something?

Depends on the definition of being camped... but I didn't inhale.

Camped as in the gameplay sense of camping? Or as in living in a tent in the nature for a while?

Sorry, I'm finnish

And it was a lame attempt at humor, once again with sarcasm towards oneself. Gotta make a reminder that it doesn't work here...

Regards,

JMH