Your sources for all those things would be interesting.v1o wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:57 pm I think Spitfire Audio are swimming in money selling mega bucks libraries to composers. I think Avid are racking in the cash too, with all the Hollywood post houses subscribed to their software suites.
I read somewhere that Dirk from PA drives a Ferrari?
At one point Roli were absolutely swimming in investor money. Now they started selling off assets starting with Juice.
License sales numbers
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- KVRAF
- 35448 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
- Banned
- 3564 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
I assume that in times of great protection mechanisms, legal resale on KVR and other sites is more of a headache for developers.consordini wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:52 pm I think the numbers will always be smaller than one can hope for. Especially as piracy is such a big part of the bedroom producers. As that's the case, I would assume initially the numbers could be decent, but with time, the amount of pirated copies would just increase with popularity.
Wouldn't mind hearing someone's perspective of how piracy actually influenced the number of sales as the popularity of the VST increased.
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- KVRian
- 1189 posts since 11 Jun, 2019
OK. Please don´t missunderstand me. I am always sceptical ... but did he also say that he earned that Money himself? And with his Music Software?
He´s a Dev - and I have no Clue what he´s involved in. I know many of such Guys. Money comes quick in this Business (if you are not too submissive).
And on the other Hand: the Music Business is not made by Blue-Collar-People. His Dad? Maybe an Inheritance? Or maybe still living @Mom, no Expenses and/or stingy?
We´ll maybe never know - but all those "nice Guys" pretending to be "alternative" - "just like you" - are Businessmen at the End of the Day and their Behaviour follows Marketing Strategies. That´s at least what I think. We have a very famous Example frequently here @kvr.
But anyway ... We´ll never know about Sales Figures. But I guess "the cheaper the more Sales". Everything below the magic 29$ is potentially freaking, while the 150+$ Hybrid Synths are hard to find in the "Rest of the World".
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- KVRian
- 1189 posts since 11 Jun, 2019
Compared to how it has been ´96-2005 Piracy seems to be secondary today withdecreasing Tendency. Back then nobody I knew used legal Software. Purchasing Software took Days. Getting hundreds of Apps on a DVD took (me) Minutes.consordini wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:52 pm Wouldn't mind hearing someone's perspective of how piracy actually influenced the number of sales as the popularity of the VST increased.
And the Attitude of the People towards the Companies has changed, too. Back then there werde two usual Suspects who developed their DAWs. Today we have many Possibilities and maybe even fell with those People [...] who do a good Job. It´s not "those Capitalists" anymore... - and Cubase Elements today is more than you would have dreamed of back then
- KVRist
- 395 posts since 6 May, 2020
That's definitely a fair point. I guess my point of view why I still see piracy as a hefty issue, is how easy it has gotten with the added interest from youtube, etc. It's not uncommon to search up a plugin and find a piracy link on the first page, not to mention how prominent it is with EDM producers who are starting out. If I remember correctly, Oliver Heldens, a producer under Spinnin Records has commented about pirating all of the software he used until he blew up, to then buy it, when music actually paid. I think it's a debate for a different topic altogether, but piracy is definitely still there. at least IMO.GRUMP wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:16 pm Compared to how it has been ´96-2005 Piracy seems to be secondary today withdecreasing Tendency. Back then nobody I knew used legal Software. Purchasing Software took Days. Getting hundreds of Apps on a DVD took (me) Minutes.
And the Attitude of the People towards the Companies has changed, too. Back then there werde two usual Suspects who developed their DAWs. Today we have many Possibilities and maybe even fell with those People [...] who do a good Job. It´s not "those Capitalists" anymore... - and Cubase Elements today is more than you would have dreamed of back then
Take care
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- addled muppet weed
- 105895 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
tbh, it was just a passing comment, he didnt really go in to much detail, other than due to saving and not being wasteful, over time he managed to get to the mill!GRUMP wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:07 pmOK. Please don´t missunderstand me. I am always sceptical ... but did he also say that he earned that Money himself? And with his Music Software?
He´s a Dev - and I have no Clue what he´s involved in. I know many of such Guys. Money comes quick in this Business (if you are not too submissive).
And on the other Hand: the Music Business is not made by Blue-Collar-People. His Dad? Maybe an Inheritance? Or maybe still living @Mom, no Expenses and/or stingy?
We´ll maybe never know - but all those "nice Guys" pretending to be "alternative" - "just like you" - are Businessmen at the End of the Day and their Behaviour follows Marketing Strategies. That´s at least what I think. We have a very famous Example frequently here @kvr.
But anyway ... We´ll never know about Sales Figures. But I guess "the cheaper the more Sales". Everything below the magic 29$ is potentially freaking, while the 150+$ Hybrid Synths are hard to find in the "Rest of the World".
i didnt ask how it was made, i just asked him to marry me.
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- addled muppet weed
- 105895 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
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- KVRian
- 1189 posts since 11 Jun, 2019
For sure it is. I mean probably. But it is not as bad anymore as it has once been - while the User Group has grown rapidly. And the Companys have adopted, too. What you get for 250$ today is usually already way too much for a Beginner.consordini wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:32 pmThat's definitely a fair point. I guess my point of view why I still see piracy as a hefty issue, is how easy it has gotten with the added interest from youtube, etc. It's not uncommon to search up a plugin and find a piracy link on the first page, not to mention how prominent it is with EDM producers who are starting out. If I remember correctly, Oliver Heldens, a producer under Spinnin Records has commented about pirating all of the software he used until he blew up, to then buy it, when music actually paid. I think it's a debate for a different topic altogether, but piracy is definitely still there. at least IMO.GRUMP wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:16 pm Compared to how it has been ´96-2005 Piracy seems to be secondary today withdecreasing Tendency. Back then nobody I knew used legal Software. Purchasing Software took Days. Getting hundreds of Apps on a DVD took (me) Minutes.
And the Attitude of the People towards the Companies has changed, too. Back then there werde two usual Suspects who developed their DAWs. Today we have many Possibilities and maybe even fell with those People [...] who do a good Job. It´s not "those Capitalists" anymore... - and Cubase Elements today is more than you would have dreamed of back then
BTW the Piratebay and Rapidshare etc. were much easier to use than Youtube and Peer Groups were a really severe Problem back then.
But anyway. I´d rather discuss the Role of the Companys themselves in this Game here. Piracy also means Spreading. Displacing. Habituate.
- KVRian
- 1032 posts since 26 Jun, 2008 from Czech Republic
Few thoughts on this topic.
NI is a bad example for comparison, because they make so much other stuff. Namely hardware, tons of DJs buy timecode vynils every few months, they have Kontakt library licensing income and so on...
Another point you haven't consider is the demand. To sell 10 000 copies for 150 bucks, you first need to make something people are willing to sned you those 150 bucks for. Back when Urs from U-he made Zebra or Diva, there was nothing like it out there at the time. Same with Serum. Or Sylenth. Or (the original) Massive. Or any of the "big synths" you are mentioning. If you're confident that your synth will be as revolutionary as these, then yes, count with those numbers. But if not, you have to look at examples of lesser known companies that have a great product, that just wasn't first. Ask Adam Szabo how many Vipers he sold. Or Rob Papen how many original Blues were sold when FM-7/8 already existed. Or Dmitry Sches how many Diversions were sold? Don't get me wrong, it's still gonna be quite a nice number I guess, but not in those millions you were predicting.
Kv33l might have a really nice input on this. Synthmaster slowly but reliably grew in functionality and popularity over the years. He probably saw both sides of the coin.
NI is a bad example for comparison, because they make so much other stuff. Namely hardware, tons of DJs buy timecode vynils every few months, they have Kontakt library licensing income and so on...
Another point you haven't consider is the demand. To sell 10 000 copies for 150 bucks, you first need to make something people are willing to sned you those 150 bucks for. Back when Urs from U-he made Zebra or Diva, there was nothing like it out there at the time. Same with Serum. Or Sylenth. Or (the original) Massive. Or any of the "big synths" you are mentioning. If you're confident that your synth will be as revolutionary as these, then yes, count with those numbers. But if not, you have to look at examples of lesser known companies that have a great product, that just wasn't first. Ask Adam Szabo how many Vipers he sold. Or Rob Papen how many original Blues were sold when FM-7/8 already existed. Or Dmitry Sches how many Diversions were sold? Don't get me wrong, it's still gonna be quite a nice number I guess, but not in those millions you were predicting.
Kv33l might have a really nice input on this. Synthmaster slowly but reliably grew in functionality and popularity over the years. He probably saw both sides of the coin.
Evovled into noctucat...
http://www.noctucat.com/
http://www.noctucat.com/
- KVRian
- 537 posts since 31 May, 2015 from the Iberian Peninsula
I will never understand this, the excuse doesn't make sense. So I shouldn't pay for a car until it has given me the value corresponding to it's cost? So I will pay for it in 10 years time. And also, I will pay university fees when I work. I'm with you, there's still a lot of piracy, and the fact that it's justified this way just makes me furious.consordini wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:32 pm ... commented about pirating all of the software he used until he blew up, to then buy it, when music actually paid. ...
- KVRian
- 1032 posts since 26 Jun, 2008 from Czech Republic
I don't want to dig into this rabbit hole once again. I don't pirate, I hate that people do it. But this analogy doesn't hold up. When you don't have a car, you can hop on a train and it will do the same job for you. But with specialty software, the freeware alternatives either don't exist, or introduce comparative disadvatage to you by their limitations. This is where I'll end this otherwise lenghty though, because it smells like being accused of endorsing piracy again. Which I wouldn't like. I want my devs healthy and well fed. ...but world's not black and white.Jorgeelalto wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:35 pmI will never understand this, the excuse doesn't make sense. So I shouldn't pay for a car until it has given me the value corresponding to it's cost? So I will pay for it in 10 years time. And also, I will pay university fees when I work. I'm with you, there's still a lot of piracy, and the fact that it's justified this way just makes me furious.
Evovled into noctucat...
http://www.noctucat.com/
http://www.noctucat.com/
- KVRist
- 395 posts since 6 May, 2020
I think it's valid to see it both ways presented because it's a bit complicated. Many people would argue it's similar to videogames and hobbies in general. Sometimes it's hard to get access to music software, based on where you live, how your economy holds up in comparison, so to some, $300 might be something you can save up in a month or two, but to some, that's all you get in a month, so it really depends on your perspective. If music is just a hobby, why shouldn't you want to explore what's out there without spending thousands, but if you're a professional, what is stopping you from investing into the gear you use. Once again, it's a decently complex topic and I'm not advertising for pirating, just highlighting why to some, it might be the only way to enjoy what they love to do.FarleyCZ wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:47 pmI don't want to dig into this rabbit hole once again. I don't pirate, I hate that people do it. But this analogy doesn't hold up. When you don't have a car, you can hop on a train and it will do the same job for you. But with specialty software, the freeware alternatives either don't exist, or introduce comparative disadvatage to you by their limitations. This is where I'll end this otherwise lenghty though, because it smells like being accused of endorsing piracy again. Which I wouldn't like. I want my devs healthy and well fed. ...but world's not black and white.Jorgeelalto wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:35 pmI will never understand this, the excuse doesn't make sense. So I shouldn't pay for a car until it has given me the value corresponding to it's cost? So I will pay for it in 10 years time. And also, I will pay university fees when I work. I'm with you, there's still a lot of piracy, and the fact that it's justified this way just makes me furious.
Take care
- KVRian
- 537 posts since 31 May, 2015 from the Iberian Peninsula
Hey, no worries, I understand you are not acknowledging piracy. Yeah, it's complicated, but right now there are lots of free tools that don't limit you that much, and each day there's better stuff. For example, take Cakewalk and Surge, and a few more high quality free plugins, and you have a very capable free digital studio. I think the problem isn't not having capable tools, but that YT tutorials and all reference materials are made using Serum/Ableton Live/Kontakt and it looks like, if you want to get to that sound, you can only do it by means of that specific product.FarleyCZ wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:47 pmI don't want to dig into this rabbit hole once again. I don't pirate, I hate that people do it. But this analogy doesn't hold up. When you don't have a car, you can hop on a train and it will do the same job for you. But with specialty software, the freeware alternatives either don't exist, or introduce comparative disadvatage to you by their limitations. This is where I'll end this otherwise lenghty though, because it smells like being accused of endorsing piracy again. Which I wouldn't like. I want my devs healthy and well fed. ...but world's not black and white.Jorgeelalto wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:35 pmI will never understand this, the excuse doesn't make sense. So I shouldn't pay for a car until it has given me the value corresponding to it's cost? So I will pay for it in 10 years time. And also, I will pay university fees when I work. I'm with you, there's still a lot of piracy, and the fact that it's justified this way just makes me furious.
Of course they are not totally comparable. But if I cannot afford a car, I can at least afford public transportation and, although it doesn't allow me as much freedom as the car, I can mostly do everything I could with it (going mostly anywhere).