What synths are in equal or better footing than VPS Avenger?

[dionenoid]

I was talking about the filter in the generator section. It's a further weakness that the ladder/diode 4-pole is only in the effects section.

Putting multiple filters in various topologies, and adding crazy modulation to them is not creating your own filters, nor does it give you the ability to model the character of filters that are commonly covered in many of its competitors. It's great that you can do what it does, but it's not a substitute for filters with character. Further, even if it were a substitute, I don't want to have to jump through so many hoops to do something that other synths handle with a simple dropdown. So the filter is still a weakness, and Kilohearts has admitted as much. I'm sure they will address it.

They already addressed the filter section, in the 1.8 update last January. What ppl still ask for however is a way to save your settings (of a generator set-up) as this is currently not possible in Phaseplant.

Anyway, it's not even a discussion really. You say the filter is a weakness, i disagree, and so do pretty much all other users. For me the filter section is one of the strong points of Phaseplant and the flexibility and originality far surpasses that of any other synth. Not by jumping through hoops but often by just adding 1 audio-rate modulation from one generator to another. You can also use one of the snap-ins : Filter, 3 different Eq's, Formant Filter, Comb Filter or Ladder Filter. And everything in infinite amounts or even inside Snap-Heap or Multipass, which you can use inside Phaseplant.

Experiment and learn, so much fun to be had with this synth but don't expect it to be another VA.

[teilo]

Anyway, it's not even a discussion really. You say the filter is a weakness, i disagree, and so do pretty much all other users. For me the filter section is one of the strong points of Phaseplant and the flexibility and originality far surpasses that of any other synth. Not by jumping through hoops but often by just adding 1 audio-rate modulation from one generator to another. You can also use one of the snap-ins : Filter, 3 different Eq's, Formant Filter, Comb Filter or Ladder Filter. And everything in infinite amounts or even inside Snap-Heap or Multipass, which you can use inside Phaseplant.

Experiment and learn, so much fun to be had with this synth but don't expect it to be another VA.

"It's not even a discussion really." A typical KVR response.

But of course, we are discussing it, and we have different opinions. You are talking about an amazingly flexible digital filter architecture. I am talking about analog character. These are different things, and it's worth knowing about these different things. I am not dismissing your observation. I'm saying it's a different matter.

[Trancit]

... I am talking about analog character...

And what is "analog character"...???

Some people seem to think, there would be some kind of magic happening and this is nonsense...
There are 2 parts which make the biggest part of what people call analog sound/character whatever...:

1. Saturation (often nonlinear)
2. The filter curve/shape

That´s it... done!!! This is 99.9% of your magic analog character...
And that´s 100% possible by using Slice EQ with a LP/HP and a peak filter ... a little bit saturation on top/or before/or both...a little bit modulation and 99% of all people will never stand a blind test if this was DIVA or Phase Plant ...

[chk071]

... I am talking about analog character...

And what is "analog character"...???

Some people seem to think, there would be some kind of magic happening and this is nonsense...
There are 2 parts which make the biggest part of what people call analog sound/character whatever...:

1. Saturation (often nonlinear)
2. The filter curve/shape

That´s it... done!!! This is 99.9% of your magic analog character...

You obviously haven't heard a good analog modelled filter then. Try NI Monark or Massive X.

The Avenger filters are definitely a bit weak in that regard. On the other hand, I don't even know if that was the main focus, maybe it was just to offer some decent digital filters, which is fair enough.

[teilo]

... I am talking about analog character...

And what is "analog character"...???

Some people seem to think, there would be some kind of magic happening and this is nonsense...
There are 2 parts which make the biggest part of what people call analog sound/character whatever...:

1. Saturation (often nonlinear)
2. The filter curve/shape

That´s it... done!!! This is 99.9% of your magic analog character...
And that´s 100% possible by using Slice EQ with a LP/HP and a peak filter ... a little bit saturation on top/or before/or both...a little bit modulation and 99% of all people will never stand a blind test if this was DIVA or Phase Plant ...

Go tell that to Urs Heckman or Synapse and company, because they obviously spent way too much time doing component modeling if all they needed to do was use a simple high/lowpass EQ and add saturation.

This is ridiculous on multiple levels. You are too emotionally invested, so I'm going to ignore any response.

[Trancit]

Go tell that to Urs Heckman or Synapse and company, because they obviously spent way too much time doing component modeling if all they needed to do was use a simple high/lowpass EQ and add saturation.

This is ridiculous on multiple levels. You are too emotionally invested, so I'm going to ignore any response.

It isn´t ridiculous at all!!!

This whole "analog hype" was mostly just marketing for offering products which do hardcoded what you already could do with the tools you had before...
There might be some exceptions though...
Many people already have proven that you can make even the most digital and cleanest sounding synth "analog" as there is not much to it...

What devs you mentioned spent a lot time on is to nail the sound of special hardware that the digital part sound almost exactly like the original... respectively with the less amount of work for the user as possible...
So if you want and as close as it can get clone of a Moog or a Prophet 5 or an Oberheim you obviously have to measure and try to replicate exactly what these hardware pieces are doing when... and a handful of little tricks like hardcoded EQ curves which turned out to sound good on most material to make it sound more "fat"...

Nevertheless the basics are always the same...
The biggest parts which make the "analog sound" are in first place and the most noticeable
- with synths of course the oscillator shapes which were often just more dull or more distorted than the digital equivalents
- instabilities of components (like Osc drift etc..) quite easy to fake with a touch of random modulation... easy to do in Phase Plant
- saturation and
- the filter curve...i.e. the most analog filters do not open completely and cutting of always frequencies above (no idea 12-14kHz) even when completely open... some filters have a little dip short behind the cutoff frequency... etc...
This in combination with the right amount of saturation gives you what most people describe as "warm" sound...

So I stand with my statement: There is no magic behind!!

Of course you won´t be able to make an authentic sounding clone of a special hardware out of Phase Plant ( thank god!!) as this isn´t it´s purpose but you will be able to make very convincing "analog" type of sounds as you got everything needed...
- With the wavetable osc you can load wavetables which cover the shapes from analog synth
This with slightly detuning will give you already a very convincing raw sound...
- The correct filter shape recreated with Slice EQ (there are tons of graphs available) with some clever macros and modulation
- a touch of saturation and perhaps a bit of EQ to shape the final sound...

At the end of the day: If somebody is looking to most accuratly faking analog synths should buy something else as there all the work is already done by the developer...
Phase Plant is a modern tool which delivers everything to make very nice new sounds never heard before and is mainly a digital playground...

[clipnotic]

in hardware forums often people are telling, that all VSTs are sounding the same, but if you listen to their music, the real problem is, that they don't understand what they have to do to sound different!

[chk071]

So I stand with my statement: There is no magic behind!!

Yeah, that must be why there are whole books about it.

https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... _2.1.0.pdf

[dionenoid]

"It's not even a discussion really." A typical KVR response.

But of course, we are discussing it, and we have different opinions. You are talking about an amazingly flexible digital filter architecture. I am talking about analog character. These are different things, and it's worth knowing about these different things. I am not dismissing your observation. I'm saying it's a different matter.

I shall ignore your first condescending remark.

Anyway, you went from calling the filters its greatest weakness, to saying that you cannot build different filters, to now starting about analog character. I never said anything about analog character, in fact i mentioned that Phaseplant is not a VA.

But seems we're running in circles here. Have fun, i'm out.

[Dirtgrain]

It isn´t ridiculous at all!!!

Set up a blind test then and be done with it.

[Teksonik]

All worship at the alter of the Analog God.........

[Trancit]

So I stand with my statement: There is no magic behind!!

Yeah, that must be why there are whole books about it.

https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... _2.1.0.pdf

Oh, come on!!!
Don´t you think there is a bit of a difference between having "analog character" in a synth and setting up the most accurate emulation???

Second, you can talk about details 100 years but when it comes to the most noticeable part of "analog sound" it´s mostly what I have written...

[AnX]

... I am talking about analog character...

And what is "analog character"...???

Some people seem to think, there would be some kind of magic happening and this is nonsense...
There are 2 parts which make the biggest part of what people call analog sound/character whatever...:

1. Saturation (often nonlinear)
2. The filter curve/shape

That´s it... done!!! This is 99.9% of your magic analog character...

that might be all a crap/lazy coder models, but that's nowhere near the complete picture

[Ambiphile]

Hardly anything is as versatile as Avenger, but i'd say Falcon 2 definately can do even more. As some people said, it's got a steep learning curve, but once you get used to it it's super powerful. Has the best effect section of any synth out there i think. They could sell this effects suite alone for 200+$ i believe...
What also makes it stand out is that it's a full sampler for multi-sampled instruments, comparable to Kontakt.

A bit less versatile but still awesome synths with tons of functions: Omnisphere 2 and Pigments 2.

[recursive one]

This whole "analog hype" was mostly just marketing for offering products which do hardcoded what you already could do with the tools you had before...
There might be some exceptions though...
...

What devs you mentioned spent a lot time on is to nail the sound of special hardware that the digital part sound almost exactly like the original... respectively with the less amount of work for the user as possible...

Yes, that's exactly it. That's why I'm not interested in Phaseplant and similar. I like creating my own synth patches but i don't like when I have to create the character from the ground up - even if we assume it's possible, I just don't have enough time and experience for that. I prefer synths where everything has been already matched and fine-tuned by the developer to sound good.

TBH, i'm yet to hear a convincing audio example of Phaseplant. Sure, the possibilities are enormous but appearently becuase of that it also takes enormous time and effort to make something that sounds really good.