Pashkuli Keyboards: discussion + demos

[Pashkuli]

its for musicians on lsd, it looks perfectly normal and is easier to play.

Not even close. The shapes were dictated by extended functionality in mind. Form follows function.

[vurt]

its for musicians on lsd, it looks perfectly normal and is easier to play.

Not even close. The shapes were dictated by extended functionality in mind. Form follows function.

did a trixie pixie steal your sense of houmous?

[cleverr1]

Is it better (more comfortable, more functional, more feature rich) than the "standard" piano keyboard. Of, course it is.

Mate, sorry but you need to articulate why this thing is "more comfortable, more functional, more feature rich" in way that real keyboard players would aspire to and understand.

I've played piano for over 50 years and good luck, but this looks like utter nonsense.

[Pashkuli]

did a trixie pixie steal your sense of houmous?

Not at all. Usually here to some joking comments like this we respond in the dry and specific way possible to amplify the joke. And even more... under the influence of LSD it actually might look straight.

Mate, sorry but you need to articulate why this thing is "more comfortable, more functional, more feature rich" in way that real keyboard players would aspire to and understand.
I've played piano for over 50 years and good luck, but this looks like utter nonsense.

Interesting though why and what you deduct as being a nonsense in this design? Time spent on something usually means that either you have mastered it, yet it also mean that you have accustomed to it. It will be very, very difficult for you to adapt to it, you will be complaining, becuase it is not like the "good old keys" etc. and even the new features won't be able to convince you. It is just how time and age work on people.

[Niowiad]

I have 2 big doubts about that design.

1. First and most important. The traditional design of (full length) raised black keys definitely helps the player placing the hands correctly, effectively working as "reference points"... i.e. on almost any chord shape the player is not just pressing down white keys but also subconciously feeling the position by slightly touching/feeling the side of black keys with the distal (and partly middle) phalanges, which plays a huge role in muscle memory of chord shapes.
Putting them all on the same level on the higher part of the keyboard sure fulfills this Pashkuli obsession with chromatic glissando, but loses a lot on a functional and practical standpoint.

2. The sharp edges between keys might look like ancient and outdated design, but they actually help pushing down a key even with the bare minimum of skin gripping on the sharp edge on particularly stretched out hand positions.
Rounded edges don't do that, it merely looks lik a cosmetic change rather than a functional change, which could make the difference between being able to properly reach 1 extra key or not.

I don't want to sound rude, but this is probably stuff you only stumble upon when you actually play the instrument on at least a minimum level of proficiency and experience, and as you said many times, you never got to learn piano/keyboards, because of how repulsive the standard keyboard design supposedly is.

[Pashkuli]

Answers:
1) Not at all. Please do not forget that the keys are curved in the other direction too, i. e. they are not in the same "level", but have a distinctive "borders", gaps shaped like funnel on each side. You can feel perfectly "where you are", all muscle memory is preserved (for the "flat design" type players). Glissando is just a minor feature (though it is much more practical for transposing and slides)

2) Actually with rounded edges you decide whether or not the key should be pressed and how fast (velocity). With flat keys you need a good grip, otherwise there is a higher risk to let it slip off mid performance. The hard edge gives hard slip off or unintentional trigger – one of the biggest reasons the key have two sided curvature.

I was accidentally hitting black keys or white keys on the "standard" keyboard. That is why I never learn to play piano properly (although I had an old 70s synth, which I repaired).

[cleverr1]

Mate, sorry but you need to articulate why this thing is "more comfortable, more functional, more feature rich" in way that real keyboard players would aspire to and understand.
I've played piano for over 50 years and good luck, but this looks like utter nonsense.

Interesting though why and what you deduct as being a nonsense in this design? Time spent on something usually means that either you have mastered it, yet it also mean that you have accustomed to it. It will be very, very difficult for you to adapt to it, you will be complaining, becuase it is not like the etc. and even the new features won't be able to convince you. It is just how time and age work on people.

Oh dear Nope you're totally wrong yet again. I'm old yet competent with both roli and "good old keys". Open to and working with the new that's good thanks. Oh, and I'm old but I have a record deal BTW.

Sorry, but I don't think you have much idea.

It's clear that you need investment - Why don't you take your product to Dragons Den?

[Niowiad]

Answers:
1) Not at all. Please do not forget that the keys are curved in the other direction too, i. e. they are not in the same "level", but have a distinctive "borders", gaps shaped like funnel on each side. You can feel perfectly "where you are", all muscle memory is preserved (for the "flat design" type players). Glissando is just a minor feature (though it is much more practical for transposing and slides)

2) Actually with rounded edges you decide whether or not the key should be pressed and how fast (velocity). With flat keys you need a good grip, otherwise there is a higher risk to let it slip off mid performance. The hard edge gives hard slip off or unintentional trigger – one of the biggest reasons the key have two sided curvature.

They have distinctive borders and gaps inbetween because of the beveled edges, but on the upper region of the keyboard they are effectively on the same level (the infographics on your instagram clearly shows this), to the point chromatic glissando is made possible and as a matter of fact very easy to perform.

Even before pressing down a white key on the upper region, at the very beginning stage of positioning the hand, you wouldn't feel the side of your fingers touching the side of raised black keys acting as guides or tactile reference for a memorized chord shape. To me this is a pretty huge deal but anyone is free to disagree.




About the sharp edges causing mis-triggering, IMHO it's just a matter of practicing on the instrument... I personally think it's mainly a beginner issue rather than a serious problem for the experienced player.
On the other side, back to the experienced player and to what I was saying before, jazz voicings often require stretching hands as much as possible exploiting the sharp edges, I don't see this happening with rounded edges.



I don't think we'll ever come to an agreement on this stuff, but that's ok
Sorry if I sounded unpolite on my previous post and best of luck on your projects (especially the "beehive" looking controller which is the most interesting of the two at least in my opinion), I really mean it

[Pashkuli]

Oh dear Nope you're totally wrong yet again. I'm old yet competent with both roli and "good old keys". Open to and working with the new that's good thanks. Oh, and I'm old but I have a record deal BTW.
It's clear that you need investment - Why don't you take your product to Dragons Den?

Rоli Sеаbоаrd has nothing to do with piano keyboard with keys. You could be perfectly fine with a touch screen or VR as well. Nothing in common to a piano keyboard. Record deals have nothing to do with this discussion. I am not striving for a career in music performance.
"Dragon's Den" is a TV-show. A show. You show something there, get an exposure. It has nothing to do with investments. You get an exposure in order to get contacted with investors.

[Pashkuli]

Even before pressing down a white key on the upper region, at the very beginning stage of positioning the hand, you wouldn't feel the side of your fingers touching the side of raised black keys acting as guides or tactile reference for a memorized chord shape. To me this is a pretty huge deal but anyone is free to disagree.

Yes, I do disagree.

About the sharp edges causing mis-triggering, IMHO it's just a matter of practicing on the instrument... I personally think it's mainly a beginner issue rather than a serious problem for the experienced player.
On the other side, back to the experienced player and to what I was saying before, jazz voicings often require stretching hands as much as possible exploiting the sharp edges, I don't see this happening with rounded edges.

Best of luck on your projects (especially the "beehive" looking controller which is the most interesting of the two at least in my opinion), I really mean it

I see, but that voicing above is a static demonstration of a wide stretch for two note interval. The rest of the fingers are pretty much stuck. You would never be able to play this in a song during performance.
And I think you miss out something very important: with a rounded shape you have a sideways comfort to press a key. As stretched as you like it and it will feel much more pleasant. Of course we are talking about spacial extreme case.

Yes the "beehive" keyboard makes the standard piano keyboard look like joke. It is much more superior in every aspect: wide chords, chromatics, fingerings, small/big hands compatibility...

[BertKoor]

Core problem: people don't perform anymore. They click their mouse on the DAW piano roll or record half tempo with just their index finger.

[Pashkuli]

Core problem: people don't perform anymore. They click their mouse on the DAW piano roll or record half tempo with just their index finger.

That is true for the majority of home producers and hobby musicians such as myself.
Is it a big business? No, it is not. That does not mean it should be in stagnation, because it is not and we see many devices coming out. Yes, for the time being they are quite expensive for the average home/hobby music producer and most of them rely on software implementation, computer connections and compatibility.
But we see major changes happening nevertheless: Seaboard, Osmose, Sensel, Alpha, Hydra, Linnstrument; in guitars: Evertune, Endure, Kemper, Synergy
Expensive, yes. After all this is not shoes, snacks or drinks.

[cleverr1]

"Dragon's Den" is a TV-show. A show. You show something there, get an exposure. It has nothing to do with investments. You get an exposure in order to get contacted with investors.

Again - just plain wrong

[vurt]

"Dragon's Den" is a TV-show. A show. You show something there, get an exposure. It has nothing to do with investments. You get an exposure in order to get contacted with investors.

Again - just plain wrong

yup, you go on there to hear duncan say "im oot".

[cleverr1]

Rоli Sеаbоаrd has nothing to do with piano keyboard with keys.

Correct, and to me at least Roli is in no way a replacement for a keyboard when it comes to tracking, that is unless you want to spend time deleting a load of superfluous controller messages every time you record simple phrases. However, the layout is already familiar so players see it as a variant of a known theme. The thing that sold me was the loads of YouTube videos which demonstrate how expressive a controller it can be and there are competent players out there that can really use its features.

Your collection of unfamiliarly arranged buttons may have the same functionality, but the layout is simply non-standard. Even if you manage to find a competent musician who would be prepared to invest the considerable time required to even appraise it, it would still be non-standard.
I'm typing this on a qwerty keyboard - why would you suppose that is?