KVR Audio

Cinebient · Post by **Cinebient** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:47 pm

As i said already in another thread it could be good and bad for developers.
So developers which still avoid iOS apps (like U-he) might be on a better way compared to those which offers iOS AUv3 for 1/10 of their desktop plug-ins.
Maybe they leave iOS, leave mac or both? Or the prices in iOS will increase?
Or iOS developers having a more easy chance now to enter a new market?
Not sure. But i also think the biggest trouble having really those old code complex apps.
I am a bit scared about things like Kontakt since it is still very important to me.
Otherwise i think (even if it takes time) if a developer cannot or will not do the switch, someone else will deliver.
So i hope U-he is early on board

Not interested in windows, nor in a obsolete intel mac there is just one way for me as customer.
Logic will be there and maybe all my iOS apps. So a great start already for me.
The next mac is def. an ARM for me.
I just hope the port is really so "easy" like it sounds in the keynote (i mean from a dumb customer view hearing the marketing bla bla).
Good luck to the developers and it could be interesting.
While some says it is the end of mac i see it more like a newborn and it was about time to leave intel. I see already such great optimized apps on my iOS devices that i wonder how it would perform on a more powerful environment with the same optimizations.
Some plug-ins on mac seems to perform worse on my i7 quadcore than on my freaking phone.

RugerioDelStereo · Post by **RugerioDelStereo** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:01 pm

The new ARM Macs will support iPad and iPhone apps. That's REALLY interesting for developers.

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:14 pm

We devs currently do not even know if our frameworks like vst or AU do still compile on the new Macs. There are a massive number of dependencies and most likely it will not be easy at all. Many old plugins will not be ported to ARM. You can expect that the performance of Rosetta2 for emulating the intel will be very slow. IntelX64 if very difficult to emulate, since it is a very complex processor.
As a customer who is doing music i would stick with the intel as long as possible

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:18 pm

RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:01 pm The new ARM Macs will support iPad and iPhone apps. That's REALLY interesting for developers.

Much as I would love to run some of my iOS music apps on desktop I would struggle to use it as my main computer given the continueing lack of a usable file system.

RugerioDelStereo · Post by **RugerioDelStereo** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:21 pm

aMUSEd wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:18 pm
RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:01 pm The new ARM Macs will support iPad and iPhone apps. That's REALLY interesting for developers.
Much as I would love to run some of my iOS music apps on desktop I would struggle to use it as my main computer given the continueing lack of a usable file system.

What about the MacOS filesystem don't you like?

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:23 pm

RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:21 pm
aMUSEd wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:18 pm
RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:01 pm The new ARM Macs will support iPad and iPhone apps. That's REALLY interesting for developers.
Much as I would love to run some of my iOS music apps on desktop I would struggle to use it as my main computer given the continueing lack of a usable file system.
What about the MacOS filesystem don't you like?

I'm referring to the iOS filesystem

Cinebient · Post by **Cinebient** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:34 pm

RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:01 pm The new ARM Macs will support iPad and iPhone apps. That's REALLY interesting for developers.

But i think they will run just in a sandboxed window.
I hope more for native ports to use inside Logic from some apps since it could be much more easy for iOS developers to port to mac as vice versa.
Of course developers which already have running ARM versions might in a better position in terms of the switch but at the same time they might shoot themselfes for offering a much cheaper version.

FarleyCZ · Post by **FarleyCZ** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:24 am

Your phone apps are outperforming your desktop apps because the transistor density is similar between ARM and Intel, but ARM is a risc processor. That means it has to do less most of the time, so it runs cooler. The downside of this is that for proper translation between x86 and ARM code, the translator ocasionally needs to replace one x86 instruction by handful of ARM ones. That's why so far all the tries to run full fledged x86 code on ARM failed miserably. Come on, Microsoft can pay the best coders in the world and their x86-ARM translator was still extremely slow.
It's such a problem Adobe just went and re-wrote photoshop for ARM from scratch instead. Steinberg did the same. And I think that's the only way forward. Problem is, not every dev has time and resources to do so. Especially plugins with ancient code base like that Kontakt you've mentioned are in danger.

Apple relies on the idea that all devs just stop anything their doing and employ themselves with porting and re-writing. I'm not so sure that can be considered a smooth transition.

RugerioDelStereo · Post by **RugerioDelStereo** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:39 am

aMUSEd wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:23 pm
RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:21 pm
aMUSEd wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:18 pm
RugerioDelStereo wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:01 pm The new ARM Macs will support iPad and iPhone apps. That's REALLY interesting for developers.
Much as I would love to run some of my iOS music apps on desktop I would struggle to use it as my main computer given the continueing lack of a usable file system.
What about the MacOS filesystem don't you like?
I'm referring to the iOS filesystem

I see. Macs will keep their current filesystem of course. iOS has some basic filesystem these days, you can't dive into the Library like on MacOS, but there is some better ways to do basic Finder functions. Agree though, it's very cumbersome.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:17 am

FarleyCZ wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:24 amemploy themselves with porting and re-writing

The lesson learned from PowerPC -> Intel, use an abstraction layer for processor specific Intrinsics.

tony10000 · Post by **tony10000** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:31 am

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:17 am
FarleyCZ wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:24 amemploy themselves with porting and re-writing
The lesson learned from PowerPC -> Intel, use an abstraction layer for processor specific Intrinsics.

Very smart!

Youlean · Post by **Youlean** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am

we can definitely expect drop in price for plugins because of the iOS plugins running on macOS.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:37 am

Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am we can definitely expect drop in price for plugins because of the iOS plugins running on macOS.

Based on what exactly? Explain yourself please. I know you are developer so your opinion would be quite interesting reading here.

edit: i think i get it. "iOS plugins" part right? I mean Eventide or Fabfilter plugins are much cheaper on iOS platform. Is that what you pointing at?

Now when you said it, how is possible that FabFilter DAW plugins are several hundreds of dollars while their iOS version are around $40 bucks? Apple take store fees so they get what exactly? $30 total? Very weird price when compared to DAW. But maybe iOS version is less quality then DAW version.

So now when people will be able to run iOS plugins with latest Mac computers how will that scale off? Interesting situation for developers...

Youlean · Post by **Youlean** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:10 am

kmonkey wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:37 am
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am we can definitely expect drop in price for plugins because of the iOS plugins running on macOS.
Based on what exactly? Explain yourself please. I know you are developer so your opinion would be quite interesting reading here.

Many devs already have their iOS plugins much cheaper than macOS version. For example FabFilter Pro Q 3 is 150 eur on macOS and 33 eur on iOS. Since ARM macs can run iOS plugin why would anyone purchase the 150 eur one...

Also, people on iOS expect prices to be much lower than on macOS. Though we could see a lot more subscription stuff like on iOS.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:13 am

Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:10 am
Many devs already have their iOS plugins much cheaper than macOS version. For example FabFilter Pro Q 3 is 150 eur on macOS and 33 eur on iOS. Since ARM macs can run iOS plugin why would anyone purchase the 150 eur one...

Also, people on iOS expect prices to be much lower than on macOS. Though we could see a lot more subscription stuff like on iOS.

Yeah your response was posted just when i updated my question and post above. Yes i get it. Thanks.

Though i don't understand FabFilter Pro Q3 prices. For DAW it's 150 EUR in their own store. 33 EUR on iOS but Apple take store fees so they get around 25 EUR.

I mean that's significant price difference. So they value their plugins 25EUR ?

And DAW people pay what exactly? And this is all based on what is expected from someone to pay?

I guess Apple allowing people to run iOS apps on new Macs just served a blow to these developers.

Apple will switch to ARM processors: what does it mean for plugin developers?