What's your preferred upgrade scheme?

[Zbigniewk23]

I agree that one and done perpetual licenses are the best. I also agree that it does decrease incentive for the manufacturer.

Next preferred is the pay at the major version upgrade while maintaining a perpetual license. You pay a little extra if you skip a version. An example being Cubase 9 --> 9.5 --> 10 --> etc. So it's if the manufacturer takes a year and a half or multiple years to get to the next major version. An example of the delays here would be Spectrasonics Omnisphere VSTi. You had to pay to get to get to Version 2.0. It's been a good 5+ years since and we're in the 2.6's. Users appear won't have to pay until again version 3.0.

3rd in line would be a yearly upgrade plan for a perpetual product. At least you get the major version upgrades included. But if you miss a year, it's not the end of the world, depending on the company, you can pick right back up whenever.

Last place is subscriptions. I strongly dislike subscriptions for myself. While it may work well for individuals who don't require a product all the time or can't afford the perpetual license cost, a subscription gives the manufacturer a lot of power and inconveniences on the customer end.

#1 being that once your subscription runs out, you're projects are screwed. You must make sure all of your stems are rendered in both wet and dry and maybe even every step of processing so that you don't lose anything by ending the subscription. The worst part is if the product is discontinued, you're also screwed once the subscription runs out.

#2 is the manufacturer can easily overcharge and you're stuck paying every cycle without choice other than to abandon the software. This is especially true if they are an industry standard or most common like Abode Photoshop or Avid Pro Tools. Avid has been pushy and been sneaky about tricking people into subscriptions. If you Crossgrade from perpetual into the subscription to get their "discount", you forfeit your perpetual license. Then after the promo 2 years of $99 each, your cost goes up to $300 per year. They hide that cost on their website so you don't have the info to make a more-informed decision. They discontinued reinstatements of expired update plans so if you don't renew your update plan at $200/year within the grace period, you'd have to buy a new perpetual license for $600 or be forced into a subscription. It's a matter of time before they discontinue perpetual products altogether.

#3 is that the manufacturer can pull an element of their product at any time such as a licensed VST and it's gone. And you have no idea when that may happen. Where with a perpetual license, that element is yours forever.

[fese]

I have no problem paying for updates, I like to get payed for the work I do, too.
I always wonder how companies like FL are able to provide free lifetime updates for their products. They probably make more money by selling their other plugins and sound ware etc.
Logic is most likely cross financed by apples hardware business.
Not sure how reaper does it, being cheap and offering years of updates. It’s a lean operation, sure, and they outsource a lot of work to the community (documentation, translation, add-ons, support). The owner being a dot com multimillionaire probably helps, too.

[apoclypse]

What has been you experience with Catalina?

None. At work we are still a couple of versions behind so that we don't have to deal with that shit. But every developer's site I've visited in the last couple of years has had to put up messages and announcements about when their products will be ready to support it. Retailers providing lists of Catalina-compatible software, any number of threads here, etc., etc. You can't just drop support for 32 bit applications like that, it's f**king ridiculous.

Now they are going to move to ARM, then you'll really find out how f**ked you are. Windows has 90% market share and they can't get anyone to write/compile applications for ARM, what hope does Apple have with only a 10% share? This time next year a new Mac will only be able to run phone apps.

I run both OSX and Windows and I haven't had a single issue with Catalina. Some developers complain, which is understandable, but as an end user my experience has been 100% positive.

So you never had any 32 bit software? You know, something you've relied on for years that has never let you down? Because I have to tell you, moving all my musical stuff from 32 bit to 64 bit has been far and away the biggest pain in my arse of all time. I've been working on it for nearly three years and I'm still not even close to the point where I could just walk away from 32 bit. And to get where I am now has cost me thousands of dollars, involved massive compromises and yet, for all that, I am yet to see any real benefit beyond having access to a handful of plugins that are 64 bit only.

Every time Windows 10 updates, it breaks my wifi, among other things. I will go days where Windows says "Connected, No Internet Access" and my computer has no IP address on the network. Then it will suddenly start working again until I reboot. This happens on two different computers.

Sounds like a problem with your modem, not your computers. I get that every second day since I bought a new modem and restarting the modem fixes it every time. And to be clear, my Android phone can't get to the internet when it happens, either.

So I am on Mac most of the time now because as they say, "It just works." I spend my time making music and getting my work done instead of trying to fix Windows.

Just as long as you don't need to use Apple's own Animation codec or any 32 bit software "it just works" but for the rest of us, it's a steaming pile of shit.

That transition from 32-bit apps to 64-bit apps has been happening since at least Tiger. Definitely Snow Leopard. So developers should have gotten their act together by now. On top of that if you are using a DAW, in a the transition to 64-bit a lot of DAWs just outright dropped 32-bit VST/AU support. So for most that isn't an issue.

The issues I'v seen with Catalina have nothing to do with 32-bit apps but with Catalina's notarization system. Which a lot devs still haven't resolved even today. I upgraded to Catalina this weekend and a lot of my plugins are not notarized so they stopped working. So my older Tonebooster plugins, Glitch2, Renoise Redux, and some Voxengo stuff just stopped working. The only workaround is to turn off GateKeeper which is what I did and I'm back in business, it still sucks and I should have just stuck with Mojave anyway.

[apoclypse]

I like upgrades that happen for every major version. I find the easy to digest and less expensive overall depending on the company. Presonus for the most part releases major features within a version cycle so it's definitely worth it. Ableton on the other hand are a bit slow with updates in general, depending on how long they plan to support Live 10, we don't really know if it was worth the upgrade cost.

Logic is of course the best bang for buck DAW out there even when it comes to updates. Since LPX was released we have had major feature updates every year for the most part. However I fully expect that when LP11 (Apple goes to 11 now apparently) comes out we will have to pay for it which is fine by me.

I'm not a fan of Bitwig's model it just seems more expensive to me overall if you like to keep up to date and the developers keep making it hard to justify the cost as they seem to only be focused on weird sound design features and haven't really done much for bread and butter and workflow related features/issues.

Not a fan of Cubase charging for .5 updates especially for something that is already pricey and comes with a dongle.

Definitely won't pay for a sub. I find the quality of software takes a completely nosedive once subs get into the picture. Luckily the DAW market is fairly vibrant and there are new ones coming out (Luna) or being worked on (whatever Behringer is working on) so I don't have to deal with that garbage. I can vote with my wallet.

[BONES]

That transition from 32-bit apps to 64-bit apps has been happening since at least Tiger. Definitely Snow Leopard. So developers should have gotten their act together by now. On top of that if you are using a DAW, in a the transition to 64-bit a lot of DAWs just outright dropped 32-bit VST/AU support. So for most that isn't an issue.

Rubbish! That's the excuse they used when they dropped support fo rtheir own Animation codec in Quicktime, which is fine for new material but completely ignores the 6TB or so of stock footage we rely on every day at work, which almost all uses that codec. On the Windows side, I have utilities that haven't been updated in 20 years that I still rely on regularly. And why should everyone else have to jump through hoops just because Apple can't be arsed to do their f**king job?

The issues I'v seen with Catalina have nothing to do with 32-bit apps but with Catalina's notarization system. Which a lot devs still haven't resolved even today. I upgraded to Catalina this weekend and a lot of my plugins are not notarized so they stopped working. So my older Tonebooster plugins, Glitch2, Renoise Redux, and some Voxengo stuff just stopped working. The only workaround is to turn off GateKeeper which is what I did and I'm back in business, it still sucks and I should have just stuck with Mojave anyway.

So it's even worse but still you make excuses for them. Do you not see how strange/pathetic that is?

[tooneba]

And they are already trying to introduce another torment for software developers. Exiting x86 processor. It's larger than Catalina.

[apoclypse]

That transition from 32-bit apps to 64-bit apps has been happening since at least Tiger. Definitely Snow Leopard. So developers should have gotten their act together by now. On top of that if you are using a DAW, in a the transition to 64-bit a lot of DAWs just outright dropped 32-bit VST/AU support. So for most that isn't an issue.

Rubbish! That's the excuse they used when they dropped support fo rtheir own Animation codec in Quicktime, which is fine for new material but completely ignores the 6TB or so of stock footage we rely on every day at work, which almost all uses that codec. On the Windows side, I have utilities that haven't been updated in 20 years that I still rely on regularly. And why should everyone else have to jump through hoops just because Apple can't be arsed to do their f**king job?

The issues I'v seen with Catalina have nothing to do with 32-bit apps but with Catalina's notarization system. Which a lot devs still haven't resolved even today. I upgraded to Catalina this weekend and a lot of my plugins are not notarized so they stopped working. So my older Tonebooster plugins, Glitch2, Renoise Redux, and some Voxengo stuff just stopped working. The only workaround is to turn off GateKeeper which is what I did and I'm back in business, it still sucks and I should have just stuck with Mojave anyway.

So it's even worse but still you make excuses for them. Do you not see how strange/pathetic that is?

What the hell are you on about?! I didn't make excuses for anyone. Look if you are mad about Apple doing something that's cool but calm the hell down. No one (at least not me) is attacking you.

I don't know nor particularly care about Quicktime so that issue you pointed to has no relevance to me. Since we are on a site about music apps and gear I responded from that perspective. Apple dropped 32-bit AU support in 2013 when they released LPX which was 64-bit only. All major DAWs in their transition to 64-bit (S1, Ableton, Cubase) all dropped 32-bit plugins support when they went 64-bit. They did that on Windows too. No 32 to 64-bit bridge just outright stopped supporting 32-bit plugins. Any DAW you've would have bought/updated to within the last, what 5 years (?), would be 64-bit only and have no support for 32-bit anyway. That's not an excuse that's fact.

Any developer who is worth the money you paid them would have updated their software long ago. I don't see a benefit to having tools or applications that are 20 years old and haven't been updated. I would have looked elsewhere or bought something else long ago. That's just me some thing differently.

[EdgarRothermich]

I see a lot of angry posts on various forums about various software from users that don't seem to understand the basic principles of software developments. Instead, it is so easy to bitch and complain.

Here are just a few things to consider. Disclaimer, I'm not trying to make any excuses for any developer.

Whatever decision a user might not be happy about often has multiple reasons:

Developer Choices
Any developer can make choices about what features to implement or to remove, decide what color scheme what UI to choose. If you as the customer don't like it, then get into communication mode with the developer to make your voice heard or ultimately don't buy it and move on.

Marketing Decision
Sometimes, especially with bigger corporations, decisions are made on a higher level than the developers have no influence over. There are plenty of ill-advised decision made, no matter if it is on Apple's side or AVID's side, just to mention two. Sometimes they are based on the bigger scheme of their roadmap (i.e., Apple) and often just for financial reasons to survive or restructure, decisions made by bean-counters who have no connection to the actual product (AVID?).

Software Development
This is the most complex aspect that users often don't understand.

• _ First of all, applications have become extremely complicated. Every once in awhile, step back and think about what you can do with your toys nowadays, be amazed, and scratch your head, how that stuff is even possible to work. A few bugs here and there (that are hopefully fixed in the future update) is negligible in the grand scheme.

• _ While early apps might have 100k lines of codes, modern DAWs now have million lines of code. Changing/adding one line could break other parts of the code (which one?)

• _ Quality control and beta testing become extremely difficult and time-consuming. Users complaining that they become un-voluntary beta testers ... yes, you are ... get over it.

• _ Legacy code is a big problem because members of the developer team change very often and nobody wants to figure out old code from the past. The frequent turnaround in team members makes that more difficult and when downsizing lays off developer (i.e., AVID), the remaining team faces even big challenges. On the other hand, the Logic team has developers who are on the team for 20 years. That definitely helps.

• _ A new DAW, like Studio One has a huge advantage over an "old" DAW like Pro Tools regarding implementing new features. With newer (clean, modern) code it is so much easier to implement new code, than in a complex code with tons of legacy code

• _ A company has to decide how much of past baggage to keep on carrying around. That has pros and cons. Windows in general or Pro Tools is an example that tries to be backward compatible as far back as possible. This puts a big financial burden on the company to not only satisfy a few people but also sacrifices the development of new technology and features. Apple is the other extreme. They try to be on the cutting edge, but their users pay the price of staying updated regarding software and hardware.

• _ Another issue makes matters even worse, and that is Plugins. Plugins are written to run a specific DAWs, but if the DAW changes stuff, or the format itself (AU, VST) is updated, you have a huge cluster%^&^% on your hand. IF the DAW requires a Plugin to be on the most recent update for the Plugin standard (AU, VST) but the DAW customer uses old versions of a specific Plugin, then you are running issues and the good old finger-pointing starts. That is a situation right now with the new Logic update that requires the Plugin to run current AU (not even AUv3). Apple usually lets the developer know, but if they don't update, if the update becomes a paid update, or the user doesn't download the new Plugin update, then you have a problem. It seems that 90% of the crashes with Logic are based on issues with the Plugins and not with Logic itself. Of course, you can argue that Logic should use a new code, but that is where we get back to the other tradeoff between backward compatibility and using modernness technology.

[clipnotic]

I always wonder how companies like FL are able to provide free lifetime updates for their products. They probably make more money by selling their other plugins and sound ware etc.

Yes, I'm buying nearly everything from Image Line, because of the lifetime updates and the updates are really great! I also tested other DAWs and the most of them rip their users, because they're collecting ideas and problems from them and then they present an upgrade and let them pay for it! For Image Line I'm playing a beta tester for free with pleasure, because this company is a really fair company and FL Studio is an amazing DAW!