Apple will switch to ARM processors: what does it mean for plugin developers?

[IncarnateX]

Oh, bad choice of semantics. I should have used your own term then: "Planned obsolescence", which sounds somewhat like "crippling" in my ears.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Oh, bad choice of semantics. I should have used your own term then: "Planned obsolescence", which sounds somewhat like "crippling" in my ears.

Well, if it is planned, then they're doing it in eight-year cycles. I'd bet that the majority of users, both Mac and Windows, will have upgraded before that length of time.

Either way, it's far from the perception that is being spread that Apple are forcing their users to constantly dump hardware.

[syntonica]

The big issue with older Mac hardware are the sleazy eBay sellers that misrepresent older Mac hardware as being better/more capable than it really is. I'm sure there's quite a few angry buyers who've been ripped off, only to discover it past the return window.

That said, Mac laptops have always been top notch quality for the money, putting most PC laptops to shame. My PC laptop I got used matches the features of my MBP, more or less, but it's a rickety old piece of plastic with an ugly dot-pitch HD screen, crappy Synaptic track pad that barely functions, terrible keyboard, etc., etc. Had I known it would be so bad, I would've just bought another MBP and put Windows on it.

Anyway, Apple doesn't do planned obsolescence, per se, except in the long game. My MBP is from 2014 and looks like it's good for at least two more years, although I've frozen it on Mojave to keep some legacy 32-bit stuff running. I've definitely gotten my money's worth out of it, especially since I got it as a refurb for some $800.

The one thing I do complain about are the latest offerings with everything SMTed to the motherboard. I understand why they do it, to keep size and weight down, elegance and beauty up. However, they still charge ridiculous premiums on RAM and storage of you need more than what the base has to offer. I miss the days where I could purchase the base and then upgrade when/if needed.

[IncarnateX]

Well, if it is planned, then they're doing it in eight-year cycles. I'd bet that the majority of users, both Mac and Windows, will have upgraded before that length of time.

Either way, it's far from the perception that is being spread that Apple are forcing their users to constantly dump hardware.

Well, it does not really have to be obsolescence that makes it cumbersome. Cannot remember what software I searched for a couple of weeks ago, but when I found it, it had a version for 4-5 mac OSs, and that is some burden to lay on the shoulders of devs; they shall keep track of the OS versions themselves and solve any problems with their software. I am not into this game at all, but it does not sound like attractive terms to me. Maybe I am wrong. Devs would know.

[quikquak]

Computer don't get slower, OS's get more wasteful. I'm hoping Apple will go through the same 'hey look it's actually faster' routine, like they did when introducing 64 bit - at least for a little while anyway...

[pottering]

Anyway, Apple doesn't do planned obsolescence, per se, except in the long game.

Apple is the main example everyone brings out when talking about Planned Obsolescence in every article about Planned Obsolescence in every business magazine (even the extreme "free market" ones that argue Planned Obsolescence is "akshually gud").

Apple got sued over it and lost, they practiced Planned Obsolescence to the point a court in the US (most corporate-friendly place on earth) actually said "geez bro this too much greedy bullshit even for US".

And that was not 20 years ago, where one could claim they reformed, it was in 2018, and they are still getting sued over other instances of Planned Obsolescence, and stuff like Catalina and ARM shows they ain't changing, quite the opposite, they seem to be ramping up their Planned Obsolescence practices (even effing headphone plugs, WTF).

[paulm12]

The thing I'm worried about is this will cause poor performance on older plugins that are no longer in development. Sure its going to be recompiled, but we are already expecting a performance drop on "emulated" x86 apps? In other words, all the old plugins and stuff that developers are retiring (that we all love for their low CPU) may no longer have such an advantage, especially free stuff.

[machinesworking]

I wouldn't mind knowing what is the gain of this mac thing for devs, anyway. Lately I bought my first mac ever. A brand new older model, paradoxally, a macbook air late 2017. I mainly bought it because my working place clusterfcked my PC with security and network stuff to the extent that it became slow. Oh wow, I get the macbook: It is fancy, immediately integrates with my iPhone and iPad. Super user interface. Slim and delicious looking. Though at the end of the day, a full screened Reason 11 is a full screened Reason 11. However, I thought a mac would be a nice personal computer for my oldest daughter on which she among other could play Sims 4. So, I bought a secondhand mac that unfortunately was only able to run High Sierra and not Catalina. Sims 4 was all a mess despite its minimum specs promising otherwise, and all other programs, such as Logic Pro X, Pages etc. could only be loaded in older and anbandoned versions. However, since I did not know whether the Sims mess was due to High Sierra or the old components, I ordered a new one with High Sierra. Now I could not even start Sims 4 though it was not as old as the first one. Eventually I bought a brand new PC for my daughter instead. So, basically, it seems that I have been confirmed in the shared dictum that macs become obsolete at a much higher rate than windows computers. And why shouldn't they? Apple needs to grow and sell stuff like every other company and has reasons enough to help the aging process come to a conclusion. From this experience alone, it seems to me that devs have to throw themselves into this game, knowing that none of their efforts may pay off for but a period, and then, once they have accepted the deal, put themselves at risk for at lot of users to stress them with demands of upgrades every time Apple takes its mandatory turns. For example, I wonder if FL Studio was eventually ported to mac because IM wanted a bite of the Apple or because fans were driving them nuts requesting it.
Any insights to share from the devs or others?

No wonder a Macbook Air is not a capable machine, it's a vanity laptop for people who do maybe Office and internet shopping.

I don't particularly see your point here? you bought older machines, that you don't state the specs of, and claim there's a vicious upgrade cycle for macs in general because of your experience. Meanwhile I'm typing this on a 2012 MacBook pro that works just fine, my main production machine is a 2009 Mac Pro.

I find 99% of the people I know who use Windows have terrible underpowered laptops and computers, I would never judge Windows based on that hardware.

[machinesworking]

The thing I'm worried about is this will cause poor performance on older plugins that are no longer in development. Sure its going to be recompiled, but we are already expecting a performance drop on "emulated" x86 apps? In other words, all the old plugins and stuff that developers are retiring (that we all love for their low CPU) may no longer have such an advantage, especially free stuff.

Legit worry. I'm on a laptop and desktop. The Desktop is a Mac Pro I modded, it's not getting sold. Vienna Ensemble Pro, bought a copy a while ago and recently have gotten into using it. When this 2012 laptop gets too slow, I'll probably end up with a new Arm Macbook,if VEP has their VST/AU/MAS/AAX plug in out by then. That way It's just a matter of my DAWs being compatible. VEP is really the cats meow with this stuff, it would make switching to Windows easier as well.

[IncarnateX]

No wonder a Macbook Air is not a capable machine, it's a vanity laptop for people who do maybe Office and internet shopping.

Except that I never said my macbook air was not a capable machine. It is actually quite capable. Runs 42 + modules in Reason 11 with no hick ups. The two older macs I referred to were macbook pros and they did not fail running Sims 4 because of specs, but because High Sierra was no longer able to run the recent Sims 4.

I don't particularly see your point here?

No sht, genius. And you won’t as long as you read with your arse and not your brain. Fortunately others did get it, and they already gave some meaningful responses to it in contrast to your own.

[machinesworking]

No wonder a Macbook Air is not a capable machine, it's a vanity laptop for people who do maybe Office and internet shopping.

Except that I never said my macbook air was not a capable machine. It is actually quite capable. Runs 42 + modules in Reason 11 with no hick ups. The two older macs I referred to were macbook pros and they did not fail running Sims 4 because of specs, but because High Sierra was no longer able to run the recent Sims 4.

I don't particularly see your point here?

No sht, genius. And you won’t as long as you read with your arse and not your brain. Fortunately others did get it, and they already gave some meaningful responses to it in contrast to your own.

Sure, do not give all the information, then blame someone for not knowing, classic.

What model and year are your macbook Pros? My 8 year old 2012 can run Catelina if I wanted it to, it currently runs Mojave. So again, you're not giving all the information and claiming planned obsolescence.

I'm fully willing to believe your claim, but not without knowing what you're using. I can't even read with my arse if you can't provide anything but a sob story.

[IncarnateX]

Sure, do not give all the information, then blame someone for not knowing, classic.

What model and year are your macbook Pros? My 8 year old 2012 can run Catelina if I wanted it to, it currently runs Mojave. So again, you're not giving all the information and claiming planned obsolescence.

I'm fully willing to believe your claim, but not without knowing what you're using. I can't even read with my arse if you can't provide anything but a sob story.

I gave you all info to get the point. El-bo got it. You didn’t, still don’t and probably never will. I am not going to answer any red herrings, misreadings or strawmans from you. Now get off my lawn and go piss somewhere else, poodle, before I kick you over the fence. You are no one to me.

[superscan]

The thing I'm worried about is this will cause poor performance on older plugins that are no longer in development. Sure its going to be recompiled, but we are already expecting a performance drop on "emulated" x86 apps? In other words, all the old plugins and stuff that developers are retiring (that we all love for their low CPU) may no longer have such an advantage, especially free stuff.

Legit worry. I'm on a laptop and desktop. The Desktop is a Mac Pro I modded, it's not getting sold. Vienna Ensemble Pro, bought a copy a while ago and recently have gotten into using it. When this 2012 laptop gets too slow, I'll probably end up with a new Arm Macbook,if VEP has their VST/AU/MAS/AAX plug in out by then. That way It's just a matter of my DAWs being compatible. VEP is really the cats meow with this stuff, it would make switching to Windows easier as well.

They had the first AU v3 plugin with Version 7. I think it’s still considered beta, but works well for me on a daily basis in Logic Pro X. So keep your current machine and use VEP plugin on the new Armbook

[No_Use]

The thing I'm worried about is this will cause poor performance on older plugins that are no longer in development. Sure its going to be recompiled, but we are already expecting a performance drop on "emulated" x86 apps? In other words, all the old plugins and stuff that developers are retiring (that we all love for their low CPU) may no longer have such an advantage, especially free stuff.

Yes, for free stuff I guess a lot of devs won't bother recompiling for ARM.
A lot of Mac freeware probably died already with the Catalina notarizing requirement requiring devs a payed Apple developer license.
I've only released one cross-platform freeware plugin so far but didn't bother to pay Apple just to keep it working.

[Made In Machines]

I'm curious to get plugin developers thoughts on the transition process and final result. Have they started work on updates already? Do they plan to start now? Are they going to dump the Apple platform entirely? Do they think that ARM have a positive impact on performance vs CPU usage? Will multi-core now be more effective? Plenty are members of KVR so perhaps they could chime in?