Apple will switch to ARM processors: what does it mean for plugin developers?

[FigBug]

I've downloaded the Xcode 12 beta and tried building my plugin for ARM. It won't build, JUCE needs a few updates. Nothing major, but I'll wait for them to do it. I've ordered by dev kit, it'll be here soon.

I'm expecting performance to be worse, just because I think they are going to start with the low end CPUs and then work up. They aren't going to have a 12 core chip on day 1. I worry they'll never have an equivalent to my Mac Pro CPU, but we will see.

Transition wise I think this is going to be a lot easier than OS9 -> OS10, PPC to Intel or 32 to 64 bit. So I don't think it'll be a big deal at all. I wouldn't be surprised if it easier than notarization.

[mystran]

Will multi-core now be more effective?

While your other question I cannot answer, this one is easy: CPU architecture won't really have any effect on multi-core processing as such.

There is a concept known as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law that basically puts an upper limit on efficiency of multi-processing (even as you scale the thread-count to the infinity) depending on the amount of serial dependencies and unfortunately in audio we usually have quite a bit of unavoidable serial dependency going on. Note that from the plots on that page it should be fairly obvious that even a fairly small amount of serial work can have quite a drastic impact on multi-core efficiency.

Also note that while we could get better efficiency in terms of batch processing by pipelining, this necessarily introduces additional latency so it isn't exactly great for audio either. Also Amdahl's law is only the theoretical best-case scenario, while in practice you practically always end up doing significantly worse, because dispatching tasks to multiple-threads always has some additional overhead. In theory another CPU architecture could have slightly lower overheads, but much of it comes down to operating system book-keeping so the impact would likely be miniscule at best.

[syntonica]

I'm expecting performance to be worse, just because I think they are going to start with the low end CPUs and then work up. They aren't going to have a 12 core chip on day 1. I worry they'll never have an equivalent to my Mac Pro CPU, but we will see.

Actually, they probably will have 12-core, if the A14 rumors are correct. 8 high-performance, 4 energy-efficient. Stuff 6-8 of those puppies on a motherboard and I think the Pros will do fine. But what to do with all those extra GPU cores? Maybe Metal?

This will be Apple's third CPU switch over the years: 68k -> PPC, PPC -> Intel, and now Intel -> ARM. Hopefully, barring any breakthroughs in quantum computing, Apple will stick with this one until I go to that Great Genius Bar in the Sky, since they'll no longer be at the mercy of other designers/manufacturers to stay on the cutting edge.

[machinesworking]

Sure, do not give all the information, then blame someone for not knowing, classic.

What model and year are your macbook Pros? My 8 year old 2012 can run Catelina if I wanted it to, it currently runs Mojave. So again, you're not giving all the information and claiming planned obsolescence.

I'm fully willing to believe your claim, but not without knowing what you're using. I can't even read with my arse if you can't provide anything but a sob story.

I gave you all info to get the point. El-bo got it. You didn’t, still don’t and probably never will. I am not going to answer any red herrings, misreadings or strawmans from you. Now get off my lawn and go piss somewhere else, poodle, before I kick you over the fence. You are no one to me.

You really think you're some don don't you?
Weird.

Lets' get this straight. You're just some person talking on an internet forum. You mention your issues and refuse to elaborate, well sure you're of course allowed to spread anecdotal half truths. My assertions still stand, my 2012 MacBook pro can run Catelina, you have to be claiming planned obsolescence on computers over 8 years old.

[superscan]

I believe the process has been underway. Not directly, but through x-code and Catalina.AU v3 was designed to be cross-platform. The roadmap is there. Nearly all of the Logic Plugins were updated now with 10.5. It’s already ported as per the keynote. I’d guess they’ve been using AU v3 for a bit now.

As for specs, A series chips have been outperforming most intel chips for a couple years now. Compare single and multi-core on Geekbench. It’s legit.

[machinesworking]

Actually, they probably will have 12-core, if the A14 rumors are correct. 8 high-performance, 4 energy-efficient. Stuff 6-8 of those puppies on a motherboard and I think the Pros will do fine. But what to do with all those extra GPU cores? Maybe Metal?

This will be Apple's third CPU switch over the years: 68k -> PPC, PPC -> Intel, and now Intel -> ARM. Hopefully, barring any breakthroughs in quantum computing, Apple will stick with this one until I go to that Great Genius Bar in the Sky, since they'll no longer be at the mercy of other designers/manufacturers to stay on the cutting edge.

That's pretty much my take, we should see decently competitive chips pretty quickly, but my guess is the first ones will come out in Macbook Airs, minis etc.

Having used their computers forever, to me this is all good, Apple should have done this years ago, but becoming one of the biggest companies on the planet makes all that R&D cost much I mentioned elsewhere that I hope VEP gets the plug in out quickly, that solve compatibility issues without having to switch platforms for my DAWs.

What I wonder about is VST3, and is VST2 dead in the water with Arm?

[IncarnateX]

...double

[IncarnateX]

Lets' get this straight. You're just some person talking on an internet forum.

In contrast to you who are a monkey talking?

You mention your issues and refuse to elaborate, well sure you're of course allowed to spread anecdotal half truths. My assertions still stand, my 2012 MacBook pro can run Catelina, you have to be claiming planned obsolescence on computers over 8 years old.

Here check for yourself which versions of mac book pro is compatible with Catalina or not:

https://eshop.macsales.com/guides/Mac_O ... patibility

And guess: I was talking about two of the instances that were not

Try to consult facts next time.

And to the 8 years: I have a 13 year old PC with win 10 that runs SIMS 4 just fine.

And BTW; I never taked about "planned" obsolescence, just obsolescence. It was El-bo that raised that issue.

Basically I not saying that Apple slows down OSes on purpose, though they already admitted the iPhone 6 affair, where they actually did. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/tech ... ement.html. I just claim they get obsolete faster than Windows, and that Apple has no reason to prevent that and leave it to the DEVS to upgrade their software instead.

So now you have gotten all the means to get this right, and I can help you no more.

[syntonica]

Basically I not saying that Apple slows down OSes on purpose, though they already admitted the iPhone 6 affair, where they actually did. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/tech ... ement.html.

This isn't Apple slowing phones down to get people to buy new ones. This is standard behavior on any phone/laptop that when the battery gets low, the CPU is throttled to save energy until the user can recharge. What Apple didn't do was disclose this fact where I believe Android does. Besides, batteries wear out over time, causing the throttling to happen sooner. It wasn't a nefarious plot.

[IncarnateX]

This isn't Apple slowing phones down to get people to buy new ones.

Well, that was what the disagreement was about

Apple has confirmed that it does deliberately slow down the operation of older iPhones, and says it is doing so to prevent the devices from shutting down because of aging batteries.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/22/16807056 ... -batteries

You are just taking Apple’s side now.

[syntonica]

You are just taking Apple’s side now.

What can I say? Apple-haters gonna hate. At least get pissed at them for legitimate reasons. This one is really not. Batteries die. Users can either replace the battery or buy a new phone, same as with every other phone out there.

[IncarnateX]

Yeah, well. It was actually El-bo that raised the question about planned obsolescence, while taking the precaution that I was not targeting that directly in my post, just obsolescence. As said, two late 2011 macbooks I bought could only run High Sierra and couldn’t run Sims 4. Simple as that. I know of no cases of win computers from 2011 that cannot run windows 10 or Sims 4. I know of no software for Win either where you need as many versions as there are OSes like the mac software I encountered the other day. And the big point everybody missed in this sea of red herrings was that it seems to me it is a bigger job for the devs to enter the Apple game than the Windows game and that I like to find out if it is worth the trouble to them.

[syntonica]

Unfortunately, there's a lot of unscrupulous sellers out there that puff up their old computers and make them sound like they can do everything a new one can do. This is particularly the case with Macs.

As a side note, you can install newer OSes on older Macs with a patch:
http://dosdude1.com/software.html
I haven't done it yet.

However, for a video game, it's usually going to be the video card that prevents you from running it. Most MacBooks use Intel graphics which is usually just too darn slow. That's also why Macs start getting cut off from upgrades. Windows is usually the best choice for gaming. I still prefer Mac for audio. Well, actually, I prefer Mac for everything since I'm not really a gamer.

[Michael L]

I like to find out if it is worth the trouble to them.

Difficult to generalise but yes if you sell to enough Mac users to pay for your time OS-after-OS.

[IncarnateX]

@syntonica. It was not the video cards. Case is that both of them should be able to run Sims 4 Legacy edition according to its minimum stats for macs, with El Capitan and beyond. However, they messed up in each their ways. First could run it but not proces certain content of expansions. The other tried continually to load the main game instead of Legacy Edition and failed. Read about the error on the net but could not do anything about it. However, I am not a gamer either. It was for my oldest daughter who now got a brand new pc instead. Personally I am pretty much in love with my own MacBook Air late 2017 because it is both a beauty and performs stunningly well running Reason 11 with only 1,8 Ghz and 8 gb ram. In contrast, its running of Logic Pro X is far from that impressive and more to be expected from these stats. I am no Apple hater. This is my first mac ever, and I get the indulge-the-user-approach and have myself a nice break from Windows.