Apple will switch to ARM processors: what does it mean for plugin developers?

[machinesworking]

You mention your issues and refuse to elaborate, well sure you're of course allowed to spread anecdotal half truths. My assertions still stand, my 2012 MacBook pro can run Catelina, you have to be claiming planned obsolescence on computers over 8 years old.

Here check for yourself which versions of mac book pro is compatible with Catalina or not:

https://eshop.macsales.com/guides/Mac_O ... patibility

And guess: I was talking about two of the instances that were not

Try to consult facts next time.

And to the 8 years: I have a 13 year old PC with win 10 that runs SIMS 4 just fine.

Yep, a 9+ year old laptop compared to a desktop.., and you're complaining that it can't run the latest OS..... Look, I feel for you, but I cannot feel for you enough to think you're justified in complaining about buying 9 year old laptops and having them not run newer games well.

I have a 2009 Mac Pro, modded the crap out of it, but the Xeon chips in it do not run AVX instruction sets, no NI Massive X on that machine since it requires that. 2013 trash cans run it just fine. My 2012 MacBook Pro runs it. I just can't logically complain about that, and I'm sure the same physical limitations are partially at fault with your MacBooks.

Personally I would be fine with a 12 pound "laptop" with modular parts, but from my experience, laptop users are, weird. Ableton guys wanting to use 13" MacBooks that are woefully underpowered because it's a pound lighter than the 15", even though the 15" is twice as powerful..

[syntonica]

What I wonder about is VST3, and is VST2 dead in the water with Arm?

VST 2 will be fine. It's up to the manufacturers to recompile for ARM, however. I'm not sure how well Rosetta will run despite transpiling the code vs interpreting it. There's no guarantees on optimization, or its ability to handle out-of-order instructions properly. It'll be a wait-and-see for me.

Depending on the Geekbench numbers, I will probably be first in line for a new laptop with ARM processor in.

[IncarnateX]

Yep, a 9+ year old laptop compared to a desktop..

I never made comparisons to any desktop. I only have laptops. Do you read with your eyes closed or do you have memory problems?

Look, I feel for you, but I cannot feel for you enough to think you're justified in complaining about buying 9 year old laptops and having them not run newer games well.

You are still off track. I am not complaining but reporting an experience that confirmed people's saying that MacBooks get obsolute faster than Windows, e.g. in some instances they cannot run games they should be able to, and in others, devs have to make several versions of their software to fit the different OSes. You do not see Windows upgrade that often, and when they do, they often have good compatibility with even older PCs.

You have missed me several times now. First you thought I was dissing my MacBook Air. Then you disbelieved that I had have my hands on two macbooks that couldn't run Catalina. Then you implied that the "planned" obsolescence was my issue, though it was not my point, just the obsolescence relative to Windows. Now your strawman is posed as me complaining and crying about a comparison with a desktop that never happened. Jeez.

The whole post was actually about the devs having to deal with macs versus windows, but you missed that too.

Let's call it the day. I hereby welcome you to my ignore list, for frankly, I think you have had hints enough to look beyond your first failure of understanding instead of trying to justify it by move of one goal after another.^^^ There is no point for me to continue responding to your posts because you will just make up red herrings ad nauseam.

Suit yourself, and good summer and music making to you.

[BONES]

Many devs already have their iOS plugins much cheaper than macOS version. For example FabFilter Pro Q 3 is 150 eur on macOS and 33 eur on iOS. Since ARM macs can run iOS plugin why would anyone purchase the 150 eur one...

And you think FabFilter will keep their prices low once their 150 euro market disappears? Once the iOS version is as useful as the macOS version, you can bet FabFilter will sell it at the macOS price, especially given that Apple take a third of the iOS price anyway, where they can sell the macOS version direct and keep 100% of the sale price.

Also, people on iOS expect prices to be much lower than on macOS.

Maybe they do now but I expect to see that change dramatically. I also expect to see a number of devs give up altogether if Apple make it too hard. Businesses have to maintain their revenue streams, after all. They can't live on air and they can't devote significant resources to development work that doesn't see a specific financial result. i.e. They can't be rewriting existing plugins from scratch and not getting lots of money to amortise the effort. The bigger companies will manage but small devs might have to give up on Mac altogether f there is no easy road.

[machinesworking]

What I wonder about is VST3, and is VST2 dead in the water with Arm?

VST 2 will be fine. It's up to the manufacturers to recompile for ARM, however. I'm not sure how well Rosetta will run despite transpiling the code vs interpreting it. There's no guarantees on optimization, or its ability to handle out-of-order instructions properly. It'll be a wait-and-see for me.

Depending on the Geekbench numbers, I will probably be first in line for a new laptop with ARM processor in.

I really don't think so. I think VST 2 plug ins that port easily with no issues will work until some OS update breaks them, then we're SOL. I don't see it making any sense at all for any developers to spend any time on VST 2 plug ins for Arm. Steinberg are not supporting it, that's a given, so right there it's VST 3 or AU for Arm.

This is why I already started inquiring VSL about Vienna Ensemble Pro. They get a UB2 capable AU, VST, AAX, MAS plug in for Arm DAWs in the next couple years here, and I'm golden. I've always thought that for the most part Apple did the best laptops and Windows PCs were the best bang for the buck, so heading that direction with VEP running a Windows slave machine from an Arm laptop with Bitwig, DP or Logic on it makes total sense to me.

[machinesworking]

I also expect to see a number of devs give up altogether if Apple make it too hard. Businesses have to maintain their revenue streams, after all. They can't live on air and they can't devote significant resources to development work that doesn't see a specific financial result. i.e. They can't be rewriting existing plugins from scratch and not getting lots of money to amortise the effort. The bigger companies will manage but small devs might have to give up on Mac altogether f there is no easy road.

Yeah, I think you're right. What's really going to determine a lot IMO is how easy it will be for people to code for VST 3 and AU. From what most people say AU isn't hard, but it's a PITA That it exists at all, and VST 3 is a joke.
What I would hope is that Steinberg and Apple are already talking about this at some level, since Steinberg makes AU plug ins now, and Apple should want it to be easy to port a Windows VST 3 to AU and Mac VST 3. The Logic team should be on this IMO, it should be a priority. Obviously what I think isn't going to determine what will happen.

[Michael L]

Hey Bones, if developers allow their iOS apps to be available in the App Store for download to desktops, then iOS apps you bought will be free to use on desktop. In some cases I expect different versions.

[BlitBit]

[...]
Memory ordering is not a problem since c++11. If you use proper c++11 atomics and mutexes you don't have to worry about anything. Compiler will use appropriate barriers when needed to guarantee correct execution.

By default, std::atomic will use sequential consistency model which does have some barrier overhead on arm and x86, but this is not an issue most of the time, because any kind of intercore synchronization will cost a lot of cycles, barrier or not, due to cache line bouncing and pipeline flushes. Synchronization should be rare enough to not matter.

I have just found an interesting article that explains some of the differences between the memory models of ARM and x86: https://www.nickwilcox.com/blog/arm_vs_ ... ory_model/

Developers who assumed that their (multi-threaded) plugin code will only run on x86 might have to adjust their code for ARM.

[mystran]

However, for a video game, it's usually going to be the video card that prevents you from running it. Most MacBooks use Intel graphics which is usually just too darn slow. That's also why Macs start getting cut off from upgrades. Windows is usually the best choice for gaming. I still prefer Mac for audio. Well, actually, I prefer Mac for everything since I'm not really a gamer.

It's not just a matter of hardware, because macOS itself is rather hostile environment for games. Even something as basic as raw mouse input is literally impossible without kernel extensions, which means that for any sort of action gaming involving the mouse, the same machine will provide a better experience just by dual-booting into Windows.

[2DaT]

Developers who assumed that their (multi-threaded) plugin code will only run on x86 might have to adjust their code for ARM.

A correct c++11 program will do just fine. You only need adjustment if you rely on UB or platform specific functions.

[mystran]

Developers who assumed that their (multi-threaded) plugin code will only run on x86 might have to adjust their code for ARM.

Sufficiently aggressively compiler optimisations break (lock-free) multi-threaded code even on x86 all the time unless you use at least compiler fences (and if you don't then your code might randomly break any time you update your compiler) and if you do then "adjusting" the code should be a search and replace job (as the worst case, if you're using platform specific fences).

edit: In fact, if you don't use fences, your code might already be broken. It's hard to know for sure when it comes to stuff that might be very timing specific. Better abstract all your inter-thread communication in a couple of primitives and then at least semi-rigorously prove those to be correct. Then dealing with platform differences is a matter of adjusting those handful of primitives, rather than half your code-base.

[syntonica]

It's not just a matter of hardware, because macOS itself is rather hostile environment for games. Even something as basic as raw mouse input is literally impossible without kernel extensions, which means that for any sort of action gaming involving the mouse, the same machine will provide a better experience just by dual-booting into Windows.

It's a bit of a pain, but you just need to subclass a view to get your mouse and keyboard input. However, now that OpenGL is deprecated, I'm not sure how one would do this anymore since the OpenGL view will no longer be an option.

[BONES]

Hey Bones, if developers allow their iOS apps to be available in the App Store for download to desktops, then iOS apps you bought will be free to use on desktop. In some cases I expect different versions.

Yes, clearly but can you buy anything in VST or AU format on the App Store? If so, it might be a good idea to buy them all up now, while they remain cheap.

That is the other issue that needs to be clarified - when macOS moves to ARM, will vendors still be able to sell their own software or will Apple want to force everyone to use the App Store going forward? i.e. Will Apple's insatiable greed mean they are happy to lose products from their platform in order to get 30% of whatever's left? To me that seems like it might be one of their goals.

[Michael L]

when macOS moves to ARM, will vendors still be able to sell their own software or will Apple want to force everyone to use the App Store going forward?

Now apple supports both registered and independent developers who sell on their own site. At WWDC apple said they haven't finalized how that will work in the future.
Rather than "buy them all up" I suggest you buy only what you need, to keep your own musical practice free from external influences.

[machinesworking]

Hey Bones, if developers allow their iOS apps to be available in the App Store for download to desktops, then iOS apps you bought will be free to use on desktop. In some cases I expect different versions.

Yes, clearly but can you buy anything in VST or AU format on the App Store? If so, it might be a good idea to buy them all up now, while they remain cheap.

That is the other issue that needs to be clarified - when macOS moves to ARM, will vendors still be able to sell their own software or will Apple want to force everyone to use the App Store going forward? i.e. Will Apple's insatiable greed mean they are happy to lose products from their platform in order to get 30% of whatever's left? To me that seems like it might be one of their goals.

They definitely want venders to use their App Store, but there's at this time no telling if that means they'll force the issue. You can speculate in two ways, the iOS closed environment App store you see now and the current OS X App store that is not mandatory.
I'm guessing it will stay how it is now, iOS will be walled off, OS X will retain the ability to instal from vendors as long as they're authorized vendors. We definitely won't see unauthorized.

Decry it all you want, but Windows will probably head this way as well. Too many good hackers from places like Ukraine and Nicaragua with nothing better to do than hack your Home Depot card etc.