When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
hinson
KVRer
22 posts since 9 Nov, 2019

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:21 am

Hello guys

I came up with the idea to write this topic after watching this movie, but this movie is generally about all the music but I wonder, when only these two scales Major and Minor will come out of use.

Will We Ever Run Out of New Music?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAcjV60RnRw&t=13s

I can't find any information about this in the internet, in my local language and I wonder when the possibilities of making music on major western scales, Major and Minor, will be end?
From what I know for almost 300 years, almost all Western music is based on these two musical scales and they have not gone out of use yet.
In the old days, when there were no computers, creating music was intended for a small group with a lot of knowledge in the field of music, but when computers became widespread, anyone who wants to can create a song, because computer programs and midi protocol have facilitated the process of composing music, adding dozens of functions that automate many music creation activities.
Every day, thousands of new songs are created in the world by professional musicians in recording studios as well as amateurs creating music in their own homes.
And maybe 95% of these songs are created only on two major musical scales Major and Minor.
Most of the scales from the old days like ancient Greek scales, or medieval scales based on those Greek, practically came out of use which does not mean, that there are no people today who still use them to create their music, but this music is not on the top of the charts on all over the world.
It seems that for the human brain, Major and Minor scales are a necessity and music on other scales sounds strange to our brain.
Are music theorists, mathematicians and all those scientists dealing with sound and acoustics, working on other new scales that can replace Major and Minor in the future?
Or maybe in the future, for Major and Minor scales will be a quarter-tone? Although there have already been attempts to use quarter-tone in Western music, e.g. by the Czech composer who was called Alois Hába, but this was not accepted and the quarter-tone still must to wait for its chance.
Or maybe the future will be musical scales based on microtone sounds?
In real instruments it is very difficult to get this type of sounds, but in the virtual instuments there seem to be no restrictions.
Of course, I mean only the end of these two basic scales that we have been using for 300 years in western music.
In general, music will probably be with us as long as humanity will be exists.

Sorry for my Englisch but it's a complicated topic and it is not easy to choose the correct words while maintaining the correct grammar.

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BertKoor
KVRAF
11975 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:41 am

I don't know where to start, every other sentence contains a false statement. You assume way too much.

Folk music is not for the elite for instance. There are plenty other scales.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
67283 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:43 am

no.

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jancivil
KVRAF
20107 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:26 pm

"for the human brain, Major and Minor scales are a necessity"
is absurd. Baseless. Major and minor scales come out of a culture which occurs relatively recently in the, you know, history of people having a brain. They're an artifice, it's not nature. The brain can deal with a bit more (despite certain evidence which suggests the contrary).

Yeah, just no, here.
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
28380 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:37 am

Please ensure your scales at left for collection in the correct container, otherwise we may not be able to recycle them.
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AK98
KVRer
3 posts since 19 Jun, 2020

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:39 am

Music evolves constantly, but there's an important thing to keep in mind. Many songs don't solely use one major scale or one minor scale. They often have key changes, borrow chords, and use modulation. You also have to keep in mind that music from ancient Greece, Medieval Europe, and etc were popular in their respective regions for substantial period of time. They aren't popular anymore because compositions and styles changed. Music today probably won't be globally popular in 100 or even 200 years time. Tastes and cultures change.

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jancivil
KVRAF
20107 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:01 pm

The use of a 'major' or 'minor' scale tells us relatively little, really.
Minor scale, the use of it as Aeolian mode is rather different than the harmonic use.
The word is not giving us a whole lot to work from.
The use of 'major scale' in functional harmonic terms is not very like the use of Bilaval Thaat in Indian Classical Music, and it's not doing the same thing as Ionian Mode in Watermelon in Easter Hay (which goes IV to I, end of story) either. The melodic contours and tension/release characteristic can be very different using the same set of maximum of seven tones in that configuration.

"Music today* probably won't be globally popular in 100 or even 200 years time."
Really?
This prediction is based on what, exactly? (*: Which music? "Music" like it's going to be a catch-all term for everything in music is exceedingly glib.)
I'm listening to music a half century old which hasn't dated really at all, and despite a pretty specific set of sounds which are recognizable as representative of the time. I can go back to jazz from longer ago than that, to before I was born, and it's not vanishing. For that matter, Trad Jazz (Dixieland) still has its place, and uses.
<Not extremely popular with certain types of people> is one way to look at this, but there are timeless musics that are just not evaporating like comparatively empty pop songs might.
A gigantic pop hit's numbers still reflect a small portion of the world, and that's a snapshot which will eventually fade.

107 years ago Le Sacre du Printemps premiered. It's 'popular' enough to still be recognized for what it is, even as at the time people are reported to have physically fought against, and for it. It's not going anywhere.

The music of JS Bach is late 18th century. Having teh key changes, teh borrowed chords, and teh use of modulation, all that.
Palestrina composed a couple centuries before that. :shrug: We know what that sounded like more or less because the notation system is well-understood. No, this music isn't vanishing.

There are a lot of reasons the music of "Ancient Greece" is 'no longer popular', one of them is no one has any real idea what it sounded like.
Funnily enough, Dorian mode from back then is still a thing, only it got renamed Phrygian in the Church practice (and vice versa), around late medieval period (hard to be real certain when the Renaissance begins musically). We don't know what their 'melodies' were like, anyway.
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clipnotic
KVRist
361 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:27 am

The "problem" are not the scales, but how they are used and what people like. Listen to "more complex" music is development. If you are a musician, you spend much more time for music as an simple mainstream music listener. That's the reason simple chord progressions are and will working ever for mainstream music again and again. But if you want to make more complex music, you have endless possibilities for example modulations, borrow chords and so on.

Scales from other countries like Asia for example are often sound "different", because they're using other instruments. You can play an asian scale on a piano and it sounds good, but not like on a traditional asien instrument. With FM synthese for example it's possible to create "experimental scales", but I never heard a really useful one. There also are many genres, which don't have "standard melodies", but only noises and often musicians in this area are thinking, that such music needs no harmony, but noises itself having harmony, too. You can try this, if you add a nice pad sound to noises.
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jancivil
KVRAF
20107 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:10 pm

"With FM synthese for example it's possible to create "experimental scales", but I never heard a really useful one."
Who knows why one would find a specific synthesis type necessary as pertains to creating scales... one can simply just make decisions about intervals one finds from experience have a certain effect or mood and make something up, mixing colors. "I never heard a really useful one" - :shrug:
Who cares. I'll do the opposite of that and state in the affirmative: it's definitely interesting. I do that specifically, in order to_use them, it's called an idea. I like having ideas. And fabricating a scale needn't be experimental, there's rich history and practice to draw from that can inform the ideas.
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Jafo
KVRAF
1998 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:22 pm

BertKoor wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:41 am
Folk music is not for the elite for instance.
Yeah, the adjective should be a clue. :hihi:
Joy and kindness are acts of resistance -- fight the power!

Jafo
KVRAF
1998 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:33 pm

After Western scales? Most look into chromatics, then purer tunings and microtones. Raga and maqam. Some go into sound collages and tone poems.
Joy and kindness are acts of resistance -- fight the power!

Jafo
KVRAF
1998 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:39 pm

jancivil wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:26 pm
"for the human brain, Major and Minor scales are a necessity"
is absurd. Baseless. Major and minor scales come out of a culture which occurs relatively recently in the, you know, history of people having a brain. They're an artifice, it's not nature. The brain can deal with a bit more (despite certain evidence which suggests the contrary).
The only inevitable thing in music is that we hear in octaves, probably because of integer harmonics. Hmm, maybe not even that -- my mother sang all the time, but had no sense of pitch whatsoever; I had to take lessons before I could even hear octave relationships!
Joy and kindness are acts of resistance -- fight the power!

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jancivil
KVRAF
20107 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:27 pm

I picked up some little booklet from somewhere around the age of 16 with teh 'synthetic scales', you know, the super locrian and that.
I was by then solidly a modal player, uninterested in chromatic functional jazz or trying to improvise keeping up with changes.
Later the educational opportunities were all about chromatic harmony all day long, came easy to me. While at the same time aesthetically moving away from the hegemonic western european ways with velocity. I took one elective for composition, and it was go write your rows and hand it in for a grade.
Strict serial dodecaphony. I thought it was a waste of time then, but it wasn't.

I had no ear for pitch as a child. We had to take things off of records to know anything back then, so I got better.
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digitalboytn
KVRAF
1796 posts since 8 Dec, 2008 from Global Cowboy

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:07 pm

When we finally run out of ideas using major and minor scales, Jordan Rudess will be promoting a new set of replacement scales that will be the next big thing...

They will be a cross pollination of the existing forms, but your music will suck big time unless you are using the new versions...

These new scales will be available for only $9.99 each....plus tax...

Major and Minor scales will be replaced by Mijor and Manor scales and the updated scales will have these revolutionary features...

Instead of a flat 3rd in a minor scale,the new manor scale will replace it with a sharp 2nd...

And in the new mijor scale,the 7th in the existing major scale will be replaced with a flattened 8th..

If it all sounds a little confusing....don't despair...

There will be videos available for only $29.95 each to explain the changes and these videos will be in three versions for beginners,intermediate and advanced :wink:
Sorry - I don't use auto-tune....

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jancivil
KVRAF
20107 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:06 am

computers [...] adding dozens of functions that automate many music creation activities
occurs to me that <automated by a machine> and <creating> pretty much wholly disagree as concepts.

(OTOH one could write instructions and make the machine a helper, or a partner if intelligent enough. Automated creativity is bullshit, tho.)

Odd how the internet and fora encourage people with at best a really inchoate conception of things to write all this crap.
When I was at that level, there was no audience for how much I didn't know.
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