The Waves Update Plan scam

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
User avatar
audiosabre
KVRian
1105 posts since 24 Jul, 2008 from England

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 pm

I’ve always hated WUP. :dog:

20 years ago, it seemed like a cunning way of extracting money from big studios who were the only ones who could afford Waves, who liked to keep their rigs up to date. However, in the modern era of people producing in home studios it reeks of extortion. Even when my Waves plugins were covered by WUP, I was gladly informed by Waves that my DAW was unsupported, so the WUP was useless anyway. That was the first and last time I ever needed help. Because of constant sales, it sometimes makes more sense to buy everything from scratch again, rather than pay WUP. How does that make sense? Anyway my WUP timer would only start over again...

I’m being denied a couple of minor features and GUI updates because I don’t want to gift Waves a substantial portion of what I already paid for the software. What they’re offering for in return for this obscene amount of money should be free by just about any other developers standard. How anyone can justify what they want vs what I’d receive in return as a ‘fair exchange’ is beyond my grasp of worth. And to think they never used to have a cap, it was much worse before. Again, the word extortion seems apt.

My solution is to no longer use my Waves plugins. WUP is the worst practice in the music software industry in my humble opinion. I’ve been around the block, dealt with many devs, companies, policies etc and my mind is settled. It’s shambolic. I really do worry about those who defend it or consider it just. When Waves announced big changes, I naively assumed they’d join the rest of humanity and scrap WUP, but it was a misplaced belief in good faith. A leopard never changes it’s spots.

fuzzlightyear
Banned
97 posts since 15 May, 2020

Post Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:22 pm

audiosabre wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 pm
I’ve always hated WUP. :dog:

20 years ago, it seemed like a cunning way of extracting money from big studios who were the only ones who could afford Waves, who liked to keep their rigs up to date. However, in the modern era of people producing in home studios it reeks of extortion. Even when my Waves plugins were covered by WUP, I was gladly informed by Waves that my DAW was unsupported, so the WUP was useless anyway. That was the first and last time I ever needed help. Because of constant sales, it sometimes makes more sense to buy everything from scratch again, rather than pay WUP. How does that make sense? Anyway my WUP timer would only start over again...

I’m being denied a couple of minor features and GUI updates because I don’t want to gift Waves a substantial portion of what I already paid for the software. What they’re offering for in return for this obscene amount of money should be free by just about any other developers standard. How anyone can justify what they want vs what I’d receive in return as a ‘fair exchange’ is beyond my grasp of worth. And to think they never used to have a cap, it was much worse before. Again, the word extortion seems apt.

My solution is to no longer use my Waves plugins. WUP is the worst practice in the music software industry in my humble opinion. I’ve been around the block, dealt with many devs, companies, policies etc and my mind is settled. It’s shambolic. I really do worry about those who defend it or consider it just. When Waves announced big changes, I naively assumed they’d join the rest of humanity and scrap WUP, but it was a misplaced belief in good faith. A leopard never changes it’s spots.
Sounds like you should skip WUP and go the Upgrade route, just an option...
When people move the goal posts to make a point, there is no longer an original point to be made.

User avatar
soulone82
KVRian
974 posts since 16 Aug, 2010 from almost everywhere...

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:22 am

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:22 pm
audiosabre wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 pm
I’ve always hated WUP. :dog:

20 years ago, it seemed like a cunning way of extracting money from big studios who were the only ones who could afford Waves, who liked to keep their rigs up to date. However, in the modern era of people producing in home studios it reeks of extortion. Even when my Waves plugins were covered by WUP, I was gladly informed by Waves that my DAW was unsupported, so the WUP was useless anyway. That was the first and last time I ever needed help. Because of constant sales, it sometimes makes more sense to buy everything from scratch again, rather than pay WUP. How does that make sense? Anyway my WUP timer would only start over again...

I’m being denied a couple of minor features and GUI updates because I don’t want to gift Waves a substantial portion of what I already paid for the software. What they’re offering for in return for this obscene amount of money should be free by just about any other developers standard. How anyone can justify what they want vs what I’d receive in return as a ‘fair exchange’ is beyond my grasp of worth. And to think they never used to have a cap, it was much worse before. Again, the word extortion seems apt.

My solution is to no longer use my Waves plugins. WUP is the worst practice in the music software industry in my humble opinion. I’ve been around the block, dealt with many devs, companies, policies etc and my mind is settled. It’s shambolic. I really do worry about those who defend it or consider it just. When Waves announced big changes, I naively assumed they’d join the rest of humanity and scrap WUP, but it was a misplaced belief in good faith. A leopard never changes it’s spots.
Sounds like you should skip WUP and go the Upgrade route, just an option...
Sounds like he should skip Waves, just an option...

User avatar
Googly Smythe
KVRAF
2955 posts since 12 May, 2011 from Albion

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:28 am

soulone82 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:22 am
fuzzlightyear wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:22 pm
audiosabre wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 pm
I’ve always hated WUP. :dog:

20 years ago, it seemed like a cunning way of extracting money from big studios who were the only ones who could afford Waves, who liked to keep their rigs up to date. However, in the modern era of people producing in home studios it reeks of extortion. Even when my Waves plugins were covered by WUP, I was gladly informed by Waves that my DAW was unsupported, so the WUP was useless anyway. That was the first and last time I ever needed help. Because of constant sales, it sometimes makes more sense to buy everything from scratch again, rather than pay WUP. How does that make sense? Anyway my WUP timer would only start over again...

I’m being denied a couple of minor features and GUI updates because I don’t want to gift Waves a substantial portion of what I already paid for the software. What they’re offering for in return for this obscene amount of money should be free by just about any other developers standard. How anyone can justify what they want vs what I’d receive in return as a ‘fair exchange’ is beyond my grasp of worth. And to think they never used to have a cap, it was much worse before. Again, the word extortion seems apt.

My solution is to no longer use my Waves plugins. WUP is the worst practice in the music software industry in my humble opinion. I’ve been around the block, dealt with many devs, companies, policies etc and my mind is settled. It’s shambolic. I really do worry about those who defend it or consider it just. When Waves announced big changes, I naively assumed they’d join the rest of humanity and scrap WUP, but it was a misplaced belief in good faith. A leopard never changes it’s spots.
Sounds like you should skip WUP and go the Upgrade route, just an option...
Sounds like he should skip Waves, just an option...
Lol.
Bandcamp
What is life without a little whimsy?

curtiscole
KVRer
27 posts since 25 Jun, 2020

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:11 am

audiosabre wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 pm
I’ve always hated WUP. :dog:

20 years ago, it seemed like a cunning way of extracting money from big studios who were the only ones who could afford Waves, who liked to keep their rigs up to date. However, in the modern era of people producing in home studios it reeks of extortion. Even when my Waves plugins were covered by WUP, I was gladly informed by Waves that my DAW was unsupported, so the WUP was useless anyway. That was the first and last time I ever needed help. Because of constant sales, it sometimes makes more sense to buy everything from scratch again, rather than pay WUP. How does that make sense? Anyway my WUP timer would only start over again...

I’m being denied a couple of minor features and GUI updates because I don’t want to gift Waves a substantial portion of what I already paid for the software. What they’re offering for in return for this obscene amount of money should be free by just about any other developers standard. How anyone can justify what they want vs what I’d receive in return as a ‘fair exchange’ is beyond my grasp of worth. And to think they never used to have a cap, it was much worse before. Again, the word extortion seems apt.

My solution is to no longer use my Waves plugins. WUP is the worst practice in the music software industry in my humble opinion. I’ve been around the block, dealt with many devs, companies, policies etc and my mind is settled. It’s shambolic. I really do worry about those who defend it or consider it just. When Waves announced big changes, I naively assumed they’d join the rest of humanity and scrap WUP, but it was a misplaced belief in good faith. A leopard never changes it’s spots.
What people fail to realize in this day and age IMHO, is that a software company that always keeps developing, fixing bugs, integrating their software to work with new operating systems and hosts, etc. needs to be able to get paid in order to continue working on their products. Many support departments in many many companies around the world are providing support only for customers who specifically paid for their support subscriptions (which, at times, can cost a whole lot more than 250$), regardless of how much they paid for the product itself, for exactly this reason. Regardless of that, each company and each software has its own list of system requirements and in case we're talking about plugins, supported daws as well. If you do not match up to the requirements, you will not be able to get support since you cannot test all of your products on all the systems in the world and include 20/30 yo systems or daws. Again, THIS HAPPENS WITH ALL SOFTWARE MANUFACTURERS.

While I do understand that this might have been a bad experience for you, I still think that as long as Waves is not forcing their customers to pay for WUP (You are not forced to renew the update plan), they have every right to ask for payment on support subscriptions.

So again, it's not that you're not getting anything out of renewing your WUP. You're getting continuous support for the products, you're getting software updates, you're getting new plugins if a new plugin is included in a bundle you already own. I think it's a completely fair trade.

simon.a.billington
KVRAF
1911 posts since 12 Nov, 2014

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:26 am

jochicago wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:54 pm
simon.a.billington wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:27 am
However as I have said before, they weren't the only dev to charge for Catalina compatibility, iZotope did with Ozone 9. It's just the kind of changes the developers have to charge for from time to time.
Can you expand on that? I have Ozone 8 and 9 and did not go through any forced version change nor received any emails about having to pay for the Catalina update.

We seem to debate this stuff once a month. So I don't want to bring up the same arguments, but I'll add this time that I don't see Waves maintaining their 20 y/o plugins primarily due to their commitment to opening old sessions. They are still selling 20 y/o plugins today like they are hot stuff, so they have to keep them working in order to keep selling them. Most (if not nearly all) of their stuff in the Gold bundle is at least 10 years old, and they sell it today like it's as fresh as what every other developer is putting out. So the whole "session compatibility" marketing line seems to me mostly a ruse to shrug off the fact that the plugins get no new features for decades while continue to be sold as a prime lineup.

The other thing about having to charge for updates, it's really a business model issue. We definitely need these companies to have a working business model to stay profitable and keep the plugins updated. But it seems like every other company manages to come up with a model that doesn't rely on constant deception, version games and hidden fees.

Can someone here attest to old sessions working? Does anyone here have a session from 2008 that will still open? I have so many version and license issues, I get DAW warnings just from one version to the next, the previous Waves installers giving me grief, it just doesn't seem likely to me that such a thing is possible unless you are still using the same computer with the exact same configuration and versions from 2008.

Here is Sylvia Massy 3 years ago trying to open a PT session from 2008. The best she could do after running the importer was get it to open the audio files, but not the plugins.
youtube.com/watch?v=Zjt0tlGMWT0
If you wanted to run Ozone on Catalina you had to upgrade to Ozone 9. WaveArts have also issued their share or paid updates to Catalina as well. It’s dev dependant, really. The thing is if an OS updates and you have to depend countless employee hours making your software work on the new platform sometimes you have no choice but to charge for it. After all no one can afford to work for free.

Sure Waves still sells those plugins today, they’d be fools not to get more sales out of them. Many of them have become iconic in their own right, the new “classic”. But you have to ask yourself, why do they release new plugins instead of adding features to their legacy. They could do that, it would be easier and they’d cop less flack. Except, they didn’t and chose to cop the flack over it instead.

Now, you have to ask why. and here’s where the critical thinking comes in. Adding features is the primary cause to causing instabilities and crashes, especially in older tech. So the reason to not do it is to ensure that their old plugins will work in old sessions. That’s the only logic is see that works in this instance. And it’s true, most companies can’t guarantee that their plugins will still open in 10 year old project, let alone, 20 year old. Besides it’s something they also “state” with their WUP, like a guarantee.

The model that other companies use is that you pay for it every time you pay your $100+ upgrade fee which can work out to be once a year for primary products. Sure you get new features with it as well, but your paying more for it. On average the upgrade fee for a Waves plugin is $10-30, but it maxes out at $240, or something like that. If you want your extra features you buy their new plugin on sale for around $30-50. At least, this is my reasoning. When you add that together that’s around $80 kind of close to what the competitors ask for their upgrades. It’s just a different model, but it’s works out to be roughly the same.

I can’t attest to being able to open them in older projects personally, but you can bet that all the older, big studios/engineers would. And if it didn’t work relatively seamlessly there would be posts and videos about it all over the web. As Waves haters would certainly like to pass that kind of material around and make it go viral. Yet it doesn’t really exist. And again, it’s one of their WUP “guarantees”. It’s a selling point. It’s a strong reason why anyone would consider renewing WUP. If it were all talk, we’d know by now for sure.

User avatar
zvenx
KVRAF
8326 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:31 am

The thing with the Ozone example though is that you also got a whole heap of other stuff (features, improvements) from 8-9, not just OS compatibility.

I don't have any wavearts stuff, but a casual read didn't suggest it was a paid upgrade was it?
edit: but indeed it does seem that some DAWS are having issue and it is paid upgrade.

rsp
sound sculptist

User avatar
audiosabre
KVRian
1105 posts since 24 Jul, 2008 from England

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:38 am

Ooh, a 1 post account. I'll bite...
curtiscole wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:11 am
What people fail to realize in this day and age IMHO, is that a software company that always keeps developing, fixing bugs, integrating their software to work with new operating systems and hosts, etc. needs to be able to get paid in order to continue working on their products. Many support departments in many many companies around the world are providing support only for customers who specifically paid for their support subscriptions (which, at times, can cost a whole lot more than 250$), regardless of how much they paid for the product itself, for exactly this reason. Regardless of that, each company and each software has its own list of system requirements and in case we're talking about plugins, supported daws as well. If you do not match up to the requirements, you will not be able to get support since you cannot test all of your products on all the systems in the world and include 20/30 yo systems or daws. Again, THIS HAPPENS WITH ALL SOFTWARE MANUFACTURERS.
I don't fail to recognize anything. The oldest versions of Waves installers I have (V6 I believe) still work on the latest version of Windows. I have parallel installations of different Waves versions in order to avoid paying WUP. It must be a lot of coding on Waves part not to break what already worked all along. I pay for software updates all the time, support is included in the original pricing, and the updates offer value in actual developments, added features & evolution of the product. None of these things are present with Waves; 99% of what I own is exactly the same as it always was, going back over a decade in some cases. I'd be paying close to $200 for a 12 month period for almost nothing. It seems senseless to pay for what I've already paid for in part again. This is not a "fair exchange", otherwise I wouldn't be having this conversation. :dog:
curtiscole wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:11 am
While I do understand that this might have been a bad experience for you, I still think that as long as Waves is not forcing their customers to pay for WUP (You are not forced to renew the update plan), they have every right to ask for payment on support subscriptions.
Its not a bad experience, it's predatory behaviour. This non-argument that you're parroting i.e "you're not forced to renew WUP" isn't an argument in favour of WUP, nor a justification of it's alleged value, but it's also patently false for many possible reasons. Many who wish to transfer their license, or encounter problems after their WUP has expired may indeed be forced to renew.
curtiscole wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:11 am
So again, it's not that you're not getting anything out of renewing your WUP. You're getting continuous support for the products, you're getting software updates, you're getting new plugins if a new plugin is included in a bundle you already own. I think it's a completely fair trade.
Sure, all the products are the same & I never require support. The one added plugin to my bundle has gone for $9 in the past. Yet giving Waves almost $200 is a fair exchange. Makes complete sense. :clap:

User avatar
waltercruz
KVRAF
1920 posts since 4 Dec, 2011 from Brasília, Brazil

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:45 am

Even if you rationalize that Waves 11 was released to catch up Catalina changes, Waves 10, released a year before adds pretty much nothing.

softska
KVRian
786 posts since 1 Sep, 2008 from US

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:25 am

waltercruz wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:45 am
Even if you rationalize that Waves 11 was released to catch up Catalina changes, Waves 10, released a year before adds pretty much nothing.
WUP, no matter which ver, practically never adds anything other than compatibility/bux fix as far as individual plugin feature goes.

Paying for WUP is a bit like NI updates: It never quite make sense unless you have the full bundle and a good reason. I don't enjoy it but if the alternative is just straight up subscription like some dev gone to, I'll just pay for WUP for my Mercury bundle every few cycles when I finally need to.

chk071
KVRAF
24878 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:53 am

audiosabre wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:38 am
Ooh, a 1 post account. I'll bite...
At least noone accused him/her of being a shill already... I actually expected that after, like, a minute after he posted.

Totally agree with his post, BTW. Wished more people would understand the necessity of creating money to fund development. Or, actually, in general, that a business needs to generate money. A lot of people on the net unfortunately seem to have no idea that there are hard working developers behind the software, who need to earn money as much as those people themselves to make a living.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

jochicago
KVRian
921 posts since 26 Feb, 2018

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:22 am

chk071 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:53 am
audiosabre wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:38 am
Ooh, a 1 post account. I'll bite...
At least noone accused him/her of being a shill already... I actually expected that after, like, a minute after he posted.

Totally agree with his post, BTW. Wished more people would understand the necessity of creating money to fund development. Or, actually, in general, that a business needs to generate money. A lot of people on the net unfortunately seem to have no idea that there are hard working developers behind the software, who need to earn money as much as those people themselves to make a living.
I'm personally ok with a Waves company poster as long as they come here and argue in good faith.

You on the other hand... repeating the same nonsense points, "a business needs to generate money" like every other developer is in the business for charity... do you ever tire?

ramseysounds
KVRian
815 posts since 9 Jul, 2014 from UK

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:32 pm

Kettle. Black. 🙄
I wonder what happens if I press this button...

chk071
KVRAF
24878 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:45 pm

jochicago wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:22 am
chk071 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:53 am
audiosabre wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:38 am
Ooh, a 1 post account. I'll bite...
At least noone accused him/her of being a shill already... I actually expected that after, like, a minute after he posted.

Totally agree with his post, BTW. Wished more people would understand the necessity of creating money to fund development. Or, actually, in general, that a business needs to generate money. A lot of people on the net unfortunately seem to have no idea that there are hard working developers behind the software, who need to earn money as much as those people themselves to make a living.
I'm personally ok with a Waves company poster as long as they come here and argue in good faith.

You on the other hand... repeating the same nonsense points, "a business needs to generate money" like every other developer is in the business for charity... do you ever tire?
I'm not sure why you expect everyone to have the same business policies. But then, I'm not sure at all what your point is. Apart from ranting and giving me a slagging off.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

jochicago
KVRian
921 posts since 26 Feb, 2018

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:13 pm

You are not trying to join the discussion, you seem intent on derailing. You say something, then avoid discussing your point, ignore that and move to the next questionable point, then after a while go back in a circle to your earlier points. Refusing to engage in real arguments and instead just derailing in circles.

Still waiting to hear you acknowledge that lots of first-time buyers feel (and are) being swindled into a WUP yearly fee they didn't know was there.

Also would be nice to hear you say you understand that most companies can (and do) offer basic support and bug fixes as part of the original plugin price while being profitable.

Because the way you present yourself and your case, it seems you think everyone that buys Waves understands and accepts WUP, and any company that is not charging for "updates", bug fixes and basic support is a mismanaged company couldn't possibly be profitable or even operational.

Also, while we are here, it would be nice for you to acknowledge you understand that it makes sense for society to try to stop fraud/scams, even if those being swindled had "the choice" of doing their homework better and not getting scammed.

I don't think I'm asking for that much here to set a communication baseline. Your refusal to acknowledge makes it seem your intent is to derail, to muddy the discussion and prevent the rest of us from working through these topics.

Nobody called that one account "a shill", you did. I wonder why your mind goes there.

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