The Waves Update Plan scam

[robotmonkey]

Its not a bad experience, it's predatory behaviour. This non-argument that you're parroting i.e "you're not forced to renew WUP" isn't an argument in favour of WUP, nor a justification of it's alleged value, but it's also patently false for many possible reasons. Many who wish to transfer their license, or encounter problems after their WUP has expired may indeed be forced to renew.

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.

Moreover, pretty much every developer has some kind of license transfer fee you have to pay. Every iLok plugins has a minimum of 25$ fee for single plugin and 50$ for two or more plugins. That regardless of the plugin price. Many smaller developers don't even allow license transfers at all.

That aside, no, you are not forced to pay WUP. Now, that V11 was released, is the first time I have paid WUP for my Waves plugins. And no, I did not even had to, as all the V9 plugins (V9 was released 2012, fyi) are still working just fine. The reason I paid was just because due to upgrading to bigger bundle, most of my plugins were upgraded to V11 and I wanted to get the rest of them to V11 also.

It's not an issue at all.

[fairlyclose]

Its not a bad experience, it's predatory behaviour. This non-argument that you're parroting i.e "you're not forced to renew WUP" isn't an argument in favour of WUP, nor a justification of it's alleged value, but it's also patently false for many possible reasons. Many who wish to transfer their license, or encounter problems after their WUP has expired may indeed be forced to renew.

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.
Moreover, pretty much every developer has some kind of license transfer fee you have to pay.

It is predatory because the transfer fee is not transparent but requires calculation across two parameters (notional price and WUP fee). If the transfer fee were set and independent of the WUP then it would not be as sneaky.

[robotmonkey]

Its not a bad experience, it's predatory behaviour. This non-argument that you're parroting i.e "you're not forced to renew WUP" isn't an argument in favour of WUP, nor a justification of it's alleged value, but it's also patently false for many possible reasons. Many who wish to transfer their license, or encounter problems after their WUP has expired may indeed be forced to renew.

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.
Moreover, pretty much every developer has some kind of license transfer fee you have to pay.

It is predatory because the transfer fee is not transparent but requires calculation across two parameters (notional price and WUP fee). If the transfer fee were set and independent of the WUP then it would not be as sneaky.

Sorry, but that's just patently dumb. I can name so many enterprise software products where the software maintenance fee (eg WUP) is a % of the software purchase price. And it's not even that you have to calculate it yourself.

[audiosabre]

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.

First a definition:

Enterprise software, also known as Enterprise Application software, is computer software used to satisfy the needs of an organization rather than individual users.

My own emphasis. What you’ve said is that it’s a practice typical of business software, used for products sold to single users. I never even thought of it that way before, but this misapplication makes WUP appear even worse. I purchased a single user license, so why am I being treat/charged like an organisation for simple maintenance? Nobody else does this.

Thanks for making this point.

[fairlyclose]

Its not a bad experience, it's predatory behaviour. This non-argument that you're parroting i.e "you're not forced to renew WUP" isn't an argument in favour of WUP, nor a justification of it's alleged value, but it's also patently false for many possible reasons. Many who wish to transfer their license, or encounter problems after their WUP has expired may indeed be forced to renew.

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.
Moreover, pretty much every developer has some kind of license transfer fee you have to pay.

It is predatory because the transfer fee is not transparent but requires calculation across two parameters (notional price and WUP fee). If the transfer fee were set and independent of the WUP then it would not be as sneaky.

Sorry, but that's just patently dumb. I can name so many enterprise software products where the software maintenance fee (eg WUP) is a % of the software purchase price. And it's not even that you have to calculate it yourself.

It is funny you say is is dumb when you haven't understood my post about needing to calculate across two parameters

[AnX]

so is it an actual scam, or is it a disgruntled user who is making unfounded accusations?

[robotmonkey]

Its not a bad experience, it's predatory behaviour. This non-argument that you're parroting i.e "you're not forced to renew WUP" isn't an argument in favour of WUP, nor a justification of it's alleged value, but it's also patently false for many possible reasons. Many who wish to transfer their license, or encounter problems after their WUP has expired may indeed be forced to renew.

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.
Moreover, pretty much every developer has some kind of license transfer fee you have to pay.

It is predatory because the transfer fee is not transparent but requires calculation across two parameters (notional price and WUP fee). If the transfer fee were set and independent of the WUP then it would not be as sneaky.

Sorry, but that's just patently dumb. I can name so many enterprise software products where the software maintenance fee (eg WUP) is a % of the software purchase price. And it's not even that you have to calculate it yourself.

It is funny you say is is dumb when you haven't understood my post about needing to calculate across two parameters

Sorry, but how WUP is calculated is completely transparent. Even though I think that is also pretty stupid in some regards how WUP relates to transfer fee. From the procedural point of view it costs exactly the same for any given plugin. But it's obvious that the secondary point of such a transfer fee is to discourage second hand selling. Which kind of makes sense considering Waves market strategy and the current overall state of the plugin market.

[imrae]

Sorry, but how WUP is calculated is completely transparent.

How do you know what the list price (and hence WUP price) will be for the next few years?

You can't assume that the list price will move slowly downwards based on market forces, because it's a fantasy number nobody buys at. Waves could increase it arbirarily and raise WUP/transfer costs. And people here would defend them, saying "it's in the contract, stop whining!"

[robotmonkey]

How is it exactly predatory behavior? It's literally a standard practice in every field of professional enterprise software.

First a definition:

Enterprise software, also known as Enterprise Application software, is computer software used to satisfy the needs of an organization rather than individual users.

My own emphasis. What you’ve said is that it’s a practice typical of business software, used for products sold to single users. I never even thought of it that way before, but this misapplication makes WUP appear even worse. I purchased a single user license, so why am I being treat/charged like an organisation for simple maintenance? Nobody else does this.

Thanks for making this point.

That's the difference between Waves and many other developers. Their roots are in expensive professional market where clients demand and expect a bit different things from your average bedroom producer. They are still in this market, making some pretty high-end stuff way out of league for majority of persons here.

Waves has one of the best support in industry (if not the best). They are pretty much one of the very few developers who actually have phone support where you can speak to a proper person. They also do remote support whenever needed to make sure you get your issues resolved ASAP. Their license transfers have been fastest I have ever seen - often under hour after contacting them. Their plugin development quality and bug fixing speed is unmatched in industry. Their plugins are the most stable and bug free to begin with, and they fix any bugs super fast (unlike many other developers that take months or even years to iron out bugs). And all their old plugins from the very first one are still updated and completely usable so you can open even your ancient sessions. EDIT: and now WUP gives you a second activation too like people have been requesting all those years. This is what WUP guarantees you.

Waves v9 was released in 2012 and V10 in 2018. During that time all my V9 plugins got free updates and fixes even though most of them were out of WUP. I completely skipped the V10 (except couple of new plugins that I got during this time) before now going to V11. 240$ for all the plugins during this time (and considering how many plugins I have) is not that bad (actually my WUP cost me way bellow 100$ as I used the bundle upgrade route).

For comparison, a single NI plugin will cost usually between 29-49$ to upgrade to next version. The same price range goes for majority of developers.

[robotmonkey]

Sorry, but how WUP is calculated is completely transparent.

How do you know what the list price (and hence WUP price) will be for the next few years?

You can't assume that the list price will move slowly downwards based on market forces, because it's a fantasy number nobody buys at. Waves could increase it arbirarily and raise WUP/transfer costs. And people here would defend them, saying "it's in the contract, stop whining!"

You know how WUP is calculated. You literally do not know what the list price, the upgrade price or the transfer fee price is in the future for any other developer either as prices can change any time for any developer. To suggest that Waves is somehow different here, is frankly, moronic.

[imrae]

You know how WUP is calculated.

I thought I did, but I just had a look on the Waves site and I can't actually find the formula. How is a first-time buyer supposed to know? All they say is that coverage ranges from $12-240.

You literally do not know what the list price, the upgrade price or the transfer fee price is in the future for any other developer either as prices can change any time for any developer. To suggest that Waves is somehow different here, is frankly, moronic.

For most developers:

• You don't need to know the future list price
• Compatibility updates are free
• People are very critical here if transfer fees are changed.

It's not a double-standard.

[fuzzlightyear]

Waves Update Plan

Plugin Updates
Enjoy new plugin updates and ongoing compatibility with your DAW, OS & hardware
VIP Tech Support
Receive personal technical guidance from Waves experts
NEW: Exclusive Premium Content
Get access & discounts on premium music production & mixing masterclasses
NEW: Free 2nd license option
Get second licenses for your covered plugins and bundles, for use on different devices.
New Plugins Added
Receive all plugins added to your bundle since you bought it and during coverage
Waves Voucher
Get a voucher good towards any Waves software purchase

https://www.waves.com/support/waves-update-plan

Waves Upgrades

Instant Online Upgrades
Instantly upgrade your products to a bigger Waves plugin bundle using our online upgrade wizard.
Don't Pay Twice
Upgrade your Waves products to a more comprehensive bundle and get credit for products you already own.
Save Money
Take advantage of sales and special promotions when you upgrade.
Free Waves Update Plan
When you upgrade, you will also receive free Waves Update Plan coverage for your upgraded product, for one year starting at the upgrade date, including all updates and VIP technical support.

https://www.waves.com/support/upgrades

[audiosabre]

That's the difference between Waves and many other developers. Their roots are in expensive professional market where clients demand and expect a bit different things from your average bedroom producer. They are still in this market, making some pretty high-end stuff way out of league for majority of persons here.

This goes back to the very first point I made in this thread; that it’s a practice to extract money from big studios and is incompatible with today’s market of home studio users.

The problem here is that Waves aren’t exclusively targeting the big studio market. Their $9, $29 deals and even some of their product lines indicate they’re targeting the home studio crowd. If WUP only applied to their largest & most expensive bundles, maybe you’d have a point, yet it applies to any product regardless of the intended audience or cost. Thus it still begs the question: why are single users being charged via practices typical of business software? It would be trivial to differentiate single user licenses from enterprise licenses at the point of sale, and have this reflected in the price. That’s how I’ve always seen it done.

[robotmonkey]

That's the difference between Waves and many other developers. Their roots are in expensive professional market where clients demand and expect a bit different things from your average bedroom producer. They are still in this market, making some pretty high-end stuff way out of league for majority of persons here.

This goes back to the very first point I made in this thread; that it’s a practice to extract money from big studios and is incompatible with today’s market of home studio users.

The problem here is that Waves aren’t exclusively targeting the big studio market. Their $9, $29 deals and even some of their product lines indicate they’re targeting the home studio crowd. If WUP only applied to their largest & most expensive bundles, maybe you’d have a point, yet it applies to any product regardless of the intended audience or cost. Thus it still begs the question: why are single users being charged via practices typical of business software? It would be trivial to differentiate single user licenses from enterprise licenses at the point of sale, and have this reflected in the price. That’s how I’ve always seen it done.

A lowly bedroom producer needs updates and support as well as studios with the exception that he probably has more time to dick around if anything is not working. For professional this usually means loosing money. I'm pretty sure, considering the constant amount of low IQ posts about installing Waves, activating Waves, updating Waves, WLC and WUP, supporting regular hobbyist is probably their biggest hurdle.

And like has been said thousand times, you do not need extend WUP if you don't want to. You have to pay for license transfers with almost every other developer. You have to pay for major upgrades with every other developer.

I've literally paid WUP one time in 10 years. Your regular yearly DAW upgrade costs more.

[robotmonkey]

You know how WUP is calculated.

I thought I did, but I just had a look on the Waves site and I can't actually find the formula. How is a first-time buyer supposed to know? All they say is that coverage ranges from $12-240.

You literally do not know what the list price, the upgrade price or the transfer fee price is in the future for any other developer either as prices can change any time for any developer. To suggest that Waves is somehow different here, is frankly, moronic.

For most developers:

• You don't need to know the future list price
• Compatibility updates are free
• People are very critical here if transfer fees are changed.

It's not a double-standard.

Since the beginning of Waves, to my knowledge, WUP price has changed like three times. It was capped at 240$, then at some point they increased it to 300$, and then recently changed it back to 240$ but made it compulsory for license transfers and added the 5% fee.