When we run out of Major and Minor scales?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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digitalboytn
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1806 posts since 8 Dec, 2008 from Global Cowboy

Post Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:04 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:52 pm
TLDR the OP but out of curiosity and from the title: When does it say we run out of major and minor scales? Is there an expiration date attached to them?
WUP :wink:
Sorry - I don't use auto-tune....

deastman
KVRAF
7440 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:58 pm

jancivil wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:06 am
computers [...] adding dozens of functions that automate many music creation activities
occurs to me that <automated by a machine> and <creating> pretty much wholly disagree as concepts.

(OTOH one could write instructions and make the machine a helper, or a partner if intelligent enough. Automated creativity is bullshit, tho.)

Odd how the internet and fora encourage people with at best a really inchoate conception of things to write all this crap.
When I was at that level, there was no audience for how much I didn't know.
I like to think that automated machines which create are actually the artistic expression of the individual who wrote the software or built the machine.
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risome
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2093 posts since 30 Oct, 2006 from Australia, NSW

Post Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:10 pm

Nope the combinations are limitless after all music is "just organised noise"-Cage
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IncarnateX
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3948 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:59 pm

jancivil wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:06 am
(OTOH one could write instructions and make the machine a helper, or a partner if intelligent enough. Automated creativity is bullshit, tho.)
Oops! That is actually exactly what I do for the moment. I have taken up contact with an old friend who plays classical guitar. We are so rusty and aged players now that we decided to just go crazy with no ambitions beyond that. So besides from him jamming classical guitar through a bunch of effects, me playing synth and synth reeds with a breathcontroller, we have “Virtual bandmates” that I made in Reason. I have made my own auto-drummer who will make random ghost notes and auto-varied fills. We also have a highly unmusical santur player, who basically spouts random notes with random timing but they are ordered by a midi filter into a scale and tempo that fits ours. Needles to say, he improvises all the time and never plays the same phrase twice. Another player have been given more repetitive themes but is allowed to vary them in fugue style. We also have a harmony generator that can make anything from ordered harmonies to the most absurd counterpoint depending on settings. We have a pad player whose pads constantly evolve and wont be the same through the tune. We have an effect generator, which has been granted the task to throw in some effects now and then. And it all sounds exactly like what it is: Two old weedheads playing along with robots on cannabis oil. We call the project “The World Machine”. I used to be in control of everything in my music in ways too anal-sadistic. This is a welcome break for me, for sure. Can’t this qualify as creative, Jan? At least I design my own modules, instruct them and decide their scope of freedom.
Last edited by IncarnateX on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jancivil
KVRAF
20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:00 am

You're still the creator, what I mean there is the people who need the rhythm supplied by a factory preset. OR SCALER to tell them what scale they have.
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jancivil
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20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:03 am

deastman wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:58 pm
jancivil wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:06 am
computers [...] adding dozens of functions that automate many music creation activities
occurs to me that <automated by a machine> and <creating> pretty much wholly disagree as concepts.

(OTOH one could write instructions and make the machine a helper, or a partner if intelligent enough. Automated creativity is bullshit, tho.)

Odd how the internet and fora encourage people with at best a really inchoate conception of things to write all this crap.
When I was at that level, there was no audience for how much I didn't know.
I like to think that automated machines which create are actually the artistic expression of the individual who wrote the software or built the machine.
Unsure how the phrase <automated BY the machine>, or 'one writes instructions' gets lost there (or 'a partner if intelligent enough*), in context of the statement '[computers that] automate music creation activities' (*: an intelligent feature as the expression of the individual who wrote it seems practically axiomatic to me). The thing I made Friday in Absynth relied on things someone wrote the program to do, 'Mutate' which was a helper to me. I 'automated' control so that the LFO characteristics and clashes I set make the rhythm, according to a broad conception of *rate* and *depth*; then there may be echo or delay phenomena that aren't deterministic or very predictable, because I like to be surprised.
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jancivil
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20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:12 am

That said, I personally have no experience with a machine that can create, but I shouldn't argue the definition of "create" past this, it's above my pay grade (or education).
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jancivil
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20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:19 am

To be fair to Dude in the video, I'm pretty sure he's a lot smarter and hipper than that argument reveals.
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3948 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:24 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:00 am
You're still the creator, what I mean there is the people who need the rhythm supplied by a factory preset. OR SCALER to tell them what scale they have.
Yeah, I thought it was something like that you meant. Just making sure. :)
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jancivil
KVRAF
20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:30 am

I'm only ankle deep in setting processes to run past my conscious control, although I've done it for some time with these kinds of modi operandi I go slightly into there. Confer Henry Cowell's comparison of pitch (or sonorities in the vertical) with ratio in rhythm.
Generally I don't feature myself as very clever in this regard. For me there would be much planning, while my process is rather more childlike.

Another idea where I abandoned a certain amount of control in favor of giving the machine some input and letting it do some work was I gave Cubase Audio to MIDI a track with the delay return(s), which was far from monophonic now so the likelihood of error is a near certainty (it isn't designed to capture more than a monophonic part). The idea was to capture the rhythmic contours but the pitch is going to be determined outside of myself. Then, I edited/wrote something from new material.
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IncarnateX
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3948 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:40 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:30 am
my process is rather more childlike.
Mine too. Maybe more than ever, because we do have some laughs over the performances of the machines. Let's just say we are learning what the "human factor" really means to music. These machines are unmusical to the skeleton. However, this is really the charm of it, we are too human to come up with such musical nonsense. It can partly sound innovative too at some points, though.
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jancivil
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20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:50 am

In any art, I find positing the question 'What is human?' a most compelling concept. AI as genuinely creative seems like it should ultimately happen but I don't guess that is has come to pass. I'm watching Westworld, the series, and the idea here is the coders are pushing their machine towards consciousness and it took one of them giving a bit of a nudge in his relationship with one of the androids (or whatever more precise term there probably is for it), basically to see her development, to send it past the rubicon. So she becomes 'woke' and fully sentient (there are subtle conceptual references to the Turing test but not stated as such afaik) And she is PISSED (also confer ethics).
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IncarnateX
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3948 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:05 am

I know. I have seen all seasons too. Westworld is a great. Lots of related issues.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
68146 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:11 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:50 am
In any art, I find positing the question 'What is human?' a most compelling concept. AI as genuninely creative seems like it should ultimately happen but I don't guess that is has come to pass. I'm watching Westworld, the series, and the idea here is the coders are pushing their machine towards consciousness and it took one of them giving a bit of a nudge in his relationship with one of the androids (or whatever more precise term there probably is for it), basically to see her development and she becomes 'woke' and fully sentient (there are subtle conceptual references to the Turing test but not stated as such afaik). And she is PISSED (also confer ethics).
you should check out "the 13th floor" if youve never seen it. vincent donofrio (daredevils king pin) as a programmer...
really good look at simulation and evolution of simulations.

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jancivil
KVRAF
20179 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:42 pm

D'Onofrio was also the overweight guy who lost it in Full Metal Jacket, a monster in The Cell, and lead in one of the Law and Order series, where his character was going crazy. I forget what else at the moment. Oh yeah, the alien with a botched human skin job in Men In Black.

googled: he plays Jerry Falwell in The Eyes of Tammy Faye.
I've met Tammy Faye. Stop me if you've heard the story.
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