bleeding edge experimentation or blinkered bullshit ???

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Markleford wrote:However, they must still ask themselves if their uniqueness, in the end, is worth anything more than the challenge itself. But I certainly hope that my words won't disuade anyone who thinks they have it in them if they think they have *fun* with it.
Personally, I get bored watching the same dvd or same sequel or same Gilligans Island episode over and over. I expect artists to come up with something new. That is much of the point of experimentation.
And let it not be said that "Cotton Eyed Joe" by Rednex wasn't original, but I think there's a reason for that. ;) I imagine one could come up with innumerable permutations of genre-crossing, "A meets B", to create something "original".
That's something like the theory behind synthesis, no?
As for myself, however, I'll try to stay out of the novelty act bin.
Like "To Kill a Mockingbird" or "Twilight Zone" or "In the Heat of the Night" ..."Rebel Without a Cause", the first punk bands, the first Synthpop bands, etc.
Still, setting out with the explicit goal of "I'm going to create something 100% original" is a bit of a lark, no? Genuine, *listenable* originality evolves from small growths rather than grand gestures.

- m
Originality's originality... This practice of calling everything derivative simply to prove a point {whatever the point of it is} has gotten to be a real bore.

The mere fact that Persona and La Dolce Vita are both black and white doesn't mean that they're the same movie. There are all sorts of shades of grey in between.

Who cares if it's %100 original or not... the idea is that the artists that made those films strove to give us something new and fresh and personal and creative and meaningful and as un-Gilligans Island-like as possible.

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Right, but by the same logic, originality can be found within 'tried and true' genres. It's not like they invented a completely new way of making a film (ie. they still used cameras, actors, and visual conventions), and though I don't know the films in question, I strongly suspect that there are other films that are comparable.

In other words, you can write 'pop' music and still have something original to say from within that context.

Originality should never be contrived, above all else.

Greg
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Lunch Money wrote:
RTaylor wrote:
shamann wrote:
jens wrote:Would you be so kind as to explain in plain words why and how it is more than 'just 3 stripes of paint'?
It's three really big stripes of paint. :D
Yeah.

It's exactly what made folk lose their respect for the arts.
I guess that all depends on which folk you're talking about. What most people forget is that it's not even close to the most expensive piece the Art Gallery owns. There are far more expensive pieces (portraits, mainly) that nobody ever looks at, cares about, or even KNOW are more expensive. If they knew, would they say, "WHAT? We paid 2.5 million for this painting of some dude that's not even famous?"

I don't think anybody lost respect for the arts out of the Voice of Fire controversy. The people who were outraged are likely people who aren't very interested in arts in the first place, and at least this gave them a jumping-off point. Quite simply put, if they didn't like the painting, they had to decide WHY, and at the same time evaluate what THEY think is good art. And that can't be a bad thing.
There's no craftsmanship... there's nothing in it to admire. ...Nothing to respect. Certainly nothing to pay for.

Even the theory's only mildly interesting. It's the sort of thing someone might hang in their studio to cover a drafty window or something. Why in the world would anyone expect the public to take a years long series of the same painting seriously.
And, strictly from a business perspective-- owning a Barnett Newman collection was a good investment. It's not like the money was wasted. It's a piece that will appreciate in value, AND it brought a lot of people to the Art Gallery to see it.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but at first gander at the title, all I can wonder is who wants to be bleeding edge? Bleh, what a cold restrictive box to be in, forced to limit your thinking to process only.

Cheers,
Steve
Why would you want to be anything else?
The answer's right there... because it's a cold restrictive box to be in.
But, by the same token, it could be more liberating than anything else.

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Lunch Money wrote:In other words, you can write 'pop' music and still have something original to say from within that context.
Yeah

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RTaylor wrote:
Lunch Money wrote:In other words, you can write 'pop' music and still have something original to say from within that context.
Yeah
thanks for making a post in this threa short enough to bother to read. the rest of ya.. geez! :roll: original music is passe, reciprocal music is coming on strong, but don't rule out ancillary music, it's like a whole new auxiliary wave.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.

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Without reading the thread I have come to the conclusion that it is nigh-on impossible to do anything truly original any more. Anything you can come up with will remind someone of something else. There is just way too much stuff out there and it is naive and arrogant to think that you can come up with something that hasn't already been done.

I just content myself with doing stuff I really like as well as I can. Its about the best any of us can hope for.
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I have to concur with Bones. The rapid progress of music over the past 100 years, coupled with mass availability of powerful synthesis tools, has rendered "experimental" music non-existant. There are too many people creating too much music now to leave any room for true innovation.

The important thing to keep in mind is that the human urge to create music is not extinguished by a lack of new frontiers to explore. Go off and create the music which suits your aesthetics, and don't sweat it.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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I agree with Bones as well to a degree. There's a great book called "The Burden of the Past on the English Poet" that discusses the problem of history and art.

That being said, while I may never write a better sonnet than Shakespeare, my social vantage point, my socially constructed self is different than 'ol Bill's and the sonnetts I write can be intensly personal. In this sense, perhaps art has escaped modernism and come into a more subjective era that affords greater honesty , or at least an easier honesty?

Part of the problem of history is that each musician inherits a musical legacy, and the further we progress through history, the more songs/styles/genres we have in our heads to begin with.

It seems this pushes some to more and more carefully define carefully constructed genres with rigid rules and in turn, break those rules to form new genres again (like electronica/techno - phht. I don't even know what too call it :hihi: )

And on the other hand, others make it as a purely personal expression: art as personal history.

hey, maybe we can start a meta-thread:
bleeding edge or blinkered debates: are they interesting or just a lot of talk about nothing?
..what goes around comes around..

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Voice of Fire - :lol: I remember the outrage Canadians had when the government paid an exborbant amount of money for it. In newspapers and such, the pictures made it look like a shit streak on a piece of TP. I like 'pop art' myself, and seeing 'something in something' goves me great inspiration - so I went to the National Gallery to see this painting 'Voice Of Fire' for myself. Mind you it was 12-13 years ago, but I couldn't find it anywhere - until someone directed me to this enclosed area. There it was... A 'big fookin' stripe!'. Enthralled me for about 17 seconds. Then I noticed security guards standing underneath it - just standing there looking like bored stripes themselves. I asked "WTF? Why are you guys just standing here under Skid Mark?" They replied "So many Canadians are disgruntled at this painting, they want to destroy it - so we've been hired to protect it.".... Fire... increasing.... in my....VOICE! "David stands around with his cock out all day, and no one takes a chisel to his pecker... Yet a getting oversized shit stain on canvas being defaced with angry shit has to be protected because our Government want to protect it's investment by paying you hourly plus overtime to stand here and force me to vomit at the audacity of the vanity! Not the artist that got bundles of money and split laughing like a hyena - but are ass rammed Hill jockeys that insist on cramming this down Canadians throats as their 'unique specimen'!!!"... So I went out and spat on the picture that says 'You Are The Cost Of Living', and stabbed holes into Warhols Brillo Boxes with my pocket knife. :hihi:

A huge artistic statement, and I didn't even charge the Canadian Government a dime for my talent! :lol:

Because after all 'Art is ANYTHING you can get away with.' Music, Writing, Tagging, Stealing - if you can get away with it, you're a Master of the field! Want to see 'The Scream'? Much better than Skid Mark, and it's value may superceed Mona now? Lipless wonderfuck that she is. It's just as much art when it's hung, stolen, spat on, or ran over in a steam roller in defience. :hihi:

Sinead O'Conner is our only last great tortured artist of our lifetime. Believe it or not - it stops with her. She's anything but 'political'. Just a gal full of ideas, and trying to get away with them - and sacrificed herself on national TV. Beat that Cat Stevens and Lauryn Hill - you pair of cashed up phonies using false faith as your palette on Watercolour Challenge to impress the teacher. BOGUS! :x

Well, that was a good rant! Glad I got away with here too. 8)

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Steven West wrote: Well, that was a good rant! Glad I got away with here too. 8)
that was art!
..what goes around comes around..

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RTaylor wrote:There's no craftsmanship... there's nothing in it to admire. ...Nothing to respect. Certainly nothing to pay for.
Only one man's opinion, though, innit? I admire it, and I respect Barnett Newman. I wouldn't pay 1.2 million, but I'd pay for it. And from a business point of view, it was a worthwhile purchase. There's absoloutely NO denying that. It's cold hard figures for an accountant, and after poring through the data, the only conclusion they'd be able to reach is, "Yup, it has more than paid for itself!"

Even from a strictly art point of view-- you look at it, go "huh?" and then later in your walk around the Gallery, you see something that makes you go, "Now THIS is art!" Worthwhile, no?

Still, I don't want to detract from a purely artistic argument, in which I would still maintain that it has merit.
Even the theory's only mildly interesting. It's the sort of thing someone might hang in their studio to cover a drafty window or something. Why in the world would anyone expect the public to take a years long series of the same painting seriously.
Apparently they do, and they did. You simply don't have the same perspective and opinion, but you can't transfer your personal thoughts onto another individual, or onto the public! :D
But, by the same token, it could be more liberating than anything else.
Indeed, it could! It very well could! Perhaps Barnett Newman liberated himself when he restricted himself to two colours. How are we to know what his intensely personal experience of painting the Voice of Fire was? The fact that it's available for public consumption doesn't change the idea that it might have been liberating and artistically redeeming for him to create it.

Creativity is also found in restricting yourself to a convention, just as easily as it is found in restricting yourself to 'non-convention'. My students are ALWAYS amazed and impressed in poetry class when they are given a structured poem to write (ie. a sonnet). With very few exceptions, they find it more inspiring and the end product more artistic than their "free form" poetry.
Steven West wrote:Voice of Fire... I went to the National Gallery ... There it was... A 'big fookin' stripe!'. Enthralled me for about 17 seconds.

Cool! Paintings by more famous artists than that have enthralled me for far shorter periods of time. :D
Then I noticed security guards standing underneath it - just standing there looking like bored stripes themselves. I asked "WTF? Why are you guys just standing here under Skid Mark?" They replied "So many Canadians are disgruntled at this painting, they want to destroy it - so we've been hired to protect it.".... Fire... increasing.... in my....VOICE! "David stands around with his cock out all day, and no one takes a chisel to his pecker... Yet a getting oversized shit stain on canvas being defaced with angry shit has to be protected because our Government want to protect it's investment by paying you hourly plus overtime to stand here and force me to vomit at the audacity of the vanity! Not the artist that got bundles of money and split laughing like a hyena - but are ass rammed Hill jockeys that insist on cramming this down Canadians throats as their 'unique specimen'!!!"...
Yes! It's audacity. But just because some members of the public threatened to destroy it and they were forced to defend it doesn't take anything away from its artistic merit. And even if the 'art terrorists' were a figment of some beaurocrat's imagination, that STILL isn't the painting's or Newman's fault. ;) And NOBODY crammed the painting down ANYONE's throat except for the outraged ones. Blame THEM for the media exposure! If some tight-ass hadn't taken it upon themself to judge the Art Gallery's decision (with only an opinion and apparently no thought to the purely financial matter at hand), the rest of Canada wouldn't have jumped on the bandwagon and I could have enjoyed it in peace. ;)
So I went out and spat on the picture that says 'You Are The Cost Of Living', and stabbed holes into Warhols Brillo Boxes with my pocket knife.

A huge artistic statement, and I didn't even charge the Canadian Government a dime for my talent!
Brilliant! :D
Because after all 'Art is ANYTHING you can get away with.' Music, Writing, Tagging, Stealing - if you can get away with it, you're a Master of the field! Want to see 'The Scream'? Much better than Skid Mark, and it's value may superceed Mona now? Lipless wonderfuck that she is. It's just as much art when it's hung, stolen, spat on, or ran over in a steam roller in defience.

Sinead O'Conner is the only ... Beat that Cat Stevens and Lauryn Hill - you pair of cashed up phonies using false faith as your palette on Watercolour Challenge to impress the teacher. BOGUS!
Dunno about Sinead, but I understand your point. How bad are Lauren Hill and Cat Stevens compared to Madonna, though? :D
Well, that was a good rant! Glad I got away with here too.
It was! And me, too. ;)

Greg
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Lunch Money wrote:
Creativity is also found in restricting yourself to a convention, just as easily as it is found in restricting yourself to 'non-convention'. My students are ALWAYS amazed and impressed in poetry class when they are given a structured poem to write (ie. a sonnet). With very few exceptions, they find it more inspiring and the end product more artistic than their "free form" poetry.
very true! What do you teach Mr.Money?
..what goes around comes around..

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Oh! I just remembered this, even though I see it all the time--

My dad was one of the 'outraged' ones, and wanted to prove how easy the painting was... so he got a hunk of wood, and this now hangs in the entranceway to his basement (actual size, 2 feet by 3 feet-ish):

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ouroboros wrote:very true! What do you teach Mr.Money?
Ideally, I'm a high school English teacher, though I have also taught Junior High English at a private school. ;-) Right now, I'm a grade 6 math teacher, though. Stupid Ottawa school board... I also teach grade 2 English at the moment, but tonight I was grading their latest project, "My Hallowe'en Counting Book", and I was hard pressed to find high art.

:D

Greg
Last edited by Lunch Money on Mon Nov 01, 2004 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BONES wrote:There is just way too much stuff out there and it is naive and arrogant to think that you can come up with something that hasn't already been done.
Is it more arrogant than thinking we already know it all?

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