KNIFONIUM synth released

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Ploki
KVRAF
2465 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:21 pm

Calenberger wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:05 pm
I've seen some graphs of aliasing plugins, their pattern were completely different, not that regular.
Probably more complex signal.
Contrary inharmonic motion is aliasing.
Everything over nyquist gets mirrored proportionally below nyquist.
So 30000hz at -10dB becomes 14100hz.
You can easily hear it too, sounds a bit like mobious filter but not really and less pleasent.

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Niowiad
KVRian
688 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:24 pm

With aliasing they always say not to worry about the spectrum analyzer if you can't hear it, now we're doing the opposite, discarding audio proof in favor of visual cues :oops:

If a signal has a regular harmonic pattern (like a sawtooth), it's going to maintain a regular pattern when folded back as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic4bVbXfdW4

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Calenberger
KVRAF
1699 posts since 8 Sep, 2019 from Calenberg

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:27 pm

I'm not convinced, aliasing is not that regular.
If it's regular, it is not sounding bad per se.
This is something else.
However...
Perhaps we should move on.
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Ploki
KVRAF
2465 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:39 pm

Aliasing is extremely regular :) it’s literally a mirror.
Aliasing can be desirable, D16 decimort is built on that - to get distinct aliased sound of vintage sampler.
However it’s also a digital phenomenon and has no place in an authentic tube emu

If the parameters didn’t lag so bad and change lag with sampling rate i might have doubts - but it doesn’t look like a properly tested release.

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Niowiad
KVRian
688 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:43 pm

Calenberger wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:27 pm
I'm not convinced, aliasing is not that regular.
If it's regular, it is not sounding bad per se.
This is something else.
However...
Perhaps we should move on.
It ends up sounding "bad" because the part which gets folded back, immediately stops being harmonically related to the fundamental.
It might keep a "regular pattern" but it's still harmonically unrelated to the (lower) unaffected portion.
This gives a distinctive inharmonic and "metallic" tone, which is actually very noticeable in the audio samples provided.

It's fine by me if we want to move on, I won't take it further :oops: :hug:

Zoopy
KVRist
35 posts since 11 Apr, 2006

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:21 pm

just email brainworx about it already, if you are so passionate about VST quality. interesting discussion (minus people straight up being insecure for no reason), altho I still feel like I'd rather you just *make music* and post it in the threads of the synths you like and paid for. this discussion has been had so many times, like about soundtoys decapitator which is maybe one of the most popular saturation plugins of all time and it is on literally probably thousands of records/films/game sound design etc and it supposedly aliases and does anyone who is actually making art that people enjoy care? Did I notice aliasing in the sound of Hyperlight Drifter? So many accomplished professional artists use plugins you would deem unworthy of your time, while you passionately march forward in pursuit of VST purity, people are making art that is changing people's lives, inspiring them and giving them joy. but people already said this to you a couple times in this thread so idk, i guess i learned something? I hope brainworx fixes any problems with the synth, it just came out, i'm stoked to use and learn knif as an instrument, it's inspiring, unlike this thread. please look at yourself in the mirror next time you are making horrible sounds and drafting analysis images.

Reefius
KVRian
1055 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Earth

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:03 pm

At least people are talking about how the synth sounds, instead of how to pronounce its name :hihi:

BerryLaCroix
KVRist
66 posts since 9 Apr, 2018

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:30 pm

My 2 cents judging from the plots: this synth either has a serious aliasing issue (that would be bad design), or it is intermodulation distortion as a result of a regular synth engine with a very simple non-linear post processing unit, which isn't really what their messaging is (in which case it's terrible marketing).

I am going to let this one pass....

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Niowiad
KVRian
688 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:09 pm

Zoopy wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:21 pm
please look at yourself in the mirror next time you are making horrible sounds and drafting analysis images.
:o :o :o
Take it easy, man :oops:
"Drafting analysis images" had been explicitly requested, multiple times, to prove the claim.

BerryLaCroix wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:30 pm
My 2 cents judging from the plots: this synth either has a serious aliasing issue (that would be bad design), or it is intermodulation distortion as a result of a regular synth engine with a very simple non-linear post processing unit, which isn't really what their messaging is (in which case it's terrible marketing).

I am going to let this one pass....
In spite of everything, I'm still very interested in the plugin because I think it provides very intriguing sonic textures, as long as the upper octaves are avoided (i.e. not going in too strong against Nyquist).
It just kind of a shame be restricted to that range, but it's better than nothing.

But I perfectly understand if anyone feels like this is a step back rather than forward, which shouldn't be rewarded with a purchase.

Reefius wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:03 pm
At least people are talking about how the synth sounds, instead of how to pronounce its name :hihi:
I checked out some finnish text-to-speech software few days ago, which pronounced it "Kneevonium", with a very non-silent K :party:

smellypants
KVRist
31 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:31 pm

Whats the highest level/volume this supposed (not confirmed?) aliasing occurs at?

If the test signal is -18db.

Cheers

Jopmanajop
KVRist
210 posts since 12 Jan, 2016

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:36 pm

Ploki wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:39 pm
If the parameters didn’t lag so bad
I wonder if Thorn has the same problem? Because when i use mouse for changing wavetable position, filter frequency or spectral filter parameters, they change very slow, like with some lags indeed, that was a little disappointing at first. Is that the same behaviour with Knifonium?

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Niowiad
KVRian
688 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:04 am

smellypants wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:31 pm
Whats the highest level/volume this supposed (not confirmed?) aliasing occurs at?

If the test signal is -18db.

Cheers
It's totally frequency dependent, besided being level dependent.
You won't hear anything on lower octaves, it starts becoming particularly noticeable above C6 at least.

At the present time I run sessions at 44.1 and for a -18 basic sawtooth above C6, from a basic "Init" preset (so we're not even talking about complex signals) I'm getting folded-back harmonics between -30 and -40 which is totally hearable on somewhat calibrated systems. This happens to almost none of my other softsynths, including some 20 years old emulations.
Lower notes than C4-C5 don't seem to be a significant issue, to me at least.

The best thing would be trying it for youself, pitchbend the notes to make it blatant, compare to other synths and simply decide if if bothers you or not.

I see Knifonium mainly as a bass-synth so it doesn't bother me too much, but I sure can't deny the issues in the upper range.

chk071
KVRAF
24879 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:39 am

You're really very involved if it doesn't really bother you, and if you wanted to let it go, as you've mentioned a couple of posts ago. ;)
Niowiad wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:43 pm
It's fine by me if we want to move on, I won't take it further :oops: :hug:
Niowiad wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:04 am
I see Knifonium mainly as a bass-synth so it doesn't bother me too much
I'd really recommend this:
Zoopy wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:21 pm
just email brainworx about it already, if you are so passionate about VST quality.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2444 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:50 am

Personally I've enjoyed the aliasing discussion. I'm a huge fan of soft synths, but I do think a lot of them sound weak at higher registers. I like that people have bothered to explain and show it as clearly as we see here.

chk071
KVRAF
24879 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:59 am

Aliasing is not the only cause of that though. Some soft synths simply have a hard cut at some frequency, or a step curve, and you hear that. Gives them that tinny, dampened shit sound.

Funny that we discuss that here though, because, both of the Brainworx synth (Oberhausen and this) IMO don't suffer from that.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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