Can I clarify whether my last post was rude or aggressive or personal to anyone?! As far as I can tell I made a very polite post with a few small suggestions within a thread about changes to Live. So that’s seems entirely within context. I also repeatedly said that I think live is a good bit of software. Which I do.
So, in summary, I politely suggest some small improvements to a piece of software that I like and use and that makes me a whiner.
Has the level of discussion around here really deteriorated that badly?!
Anyone else excited for what Ableton has been working on?
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- KVRian
- 620 posts since 4 Feb, 2017
Personal attacks are sadly a common thing on KVR and the Internet in general.
Besides this one 'attack' this thread is civil and on-topic so I don't see any deterioration.
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- KVRAF
- 4476 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
No, I am talking about clip envelopes, which do not automate absolute values but modulating values in relationship to their current position...
Clip envelopes with the newly implementation of the rightclick menu for different shapes and Abletons new "transform tool" makes them very very flexible to work with and very very powerful imho...
The problem I have with modulators like Bitwig have that they are to limited in telling them what to do at which point in time...
They are easy to set up...yes... but if you want to change their behaviour in time you need a modulator for a modulator for a modulator and perhaps even then you don´t be able to achieve what you had actually in mind...
With Abletons clip envelopes I can tell the modulation what EXACTLY to do at the EXACT point in time...
Bitwig has clip envelopes only for a little fixed set of parameters and you cannot duplicate a region of them... there I find Ableton more flexible and more powerful...
Let me say it other way round...
- Bitwig is better for "happy little accidents"... you throw a few modulators onto whatever and see what happens...
- Abletons system, even if not as easy to use, is more aimed to be precise... you want something special to achieve: here you can do it...
It´s perhaps silly to say so but do you know what the users of DAWs without any modulation capabilities do??In many cases that's true, but also: a) most FX don't offer any or enough modulation options, b) sometimes you need a global modulation, that can be applied to several devices, e.g. you want to at once reduce cut-off on a synth plugin, increase drive in saturation plugin and make the panorama wider for the 'side' signal; all in varying amounts, but still together. That's a lot of manual work, if you don't have global modulation system, like Bitwig's.
a) use the right tools... if plugin A doesn´t offer what you like... take plugin B
b) there is always automation respectively copy and paste of envelopes
c) for Ableton users not a big deal anyway...
That´s all sometimes a bit more work... yes... but with the benefit to be able to be precise...
I absolutely agree that M4L in it´s current state is quite CPU intense, but I disagree that it´s needed for every or even the most modulation tasks in Ableton... because of that I hardly find this to be a showstopper...I definitely agree with the other poster that Live's LFO / Shaper / Env. Follower devices shouldn't be tied to Suite / M4L and shouldn't incurr such a big CPU hit. Last time I checked it was 10x more than Bitwig's equivalent.
Last edited by Trancit on Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 4476 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
Sorry if you find my posting as a personal attack even if I cannot find any indicator for that in my words...quincy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:36 am Can I clarify whether my last post was rude or aggressive or personal to anyone?! As far as I can tell I made a very polite post with a few small suggestions within a thread about changes to Live. So that’s seems entirely within context. I also repeatedly said that I think live is a good bit of software. Which I do.
So, in summary, I politely suggest some small improvements to a piece of software that I like and use and that makes me a whiner.
Has the level of discussion around here really deteriorated that badly?!
If I perhaps expressed myself wrong and was rude be assured it wasn´t meant to be...
I just cannot agree with your accusations and wanted to start a discussion on that topic...
Peace...
Could you please quote me about the personal attacks I did???
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- KVRian
- 722 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany
I'm using several MIDI plugins almost daily in FL Studio and it's total simple, you just have to adjust the input and output ports and with that system I can control all synths and other MIDI effects in a track with one MIDI plugin or a chain of MIDI plugins. Meanwhile it's also possible to record MIDI, but I have another MIDI plugin which does this very comfortable since years. I'm with you, that FL Studio was a long time not the best choice for MIDI plugins, but meanwhile it's a weapon!Trancit wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:11 amWhich is the same for every major Sequencer on the market... they all work like this...Cubase, S1, Logic, Cakewalk... the only exceptions are Reaper and Bitwig... or you perhaps prefer an even worse way like FL Studio does...For example, if I want to use one of the many interesting MIDI devices on the market I have to use 2 tracks so I can "pipe" the MIDI notes from one track to another. I cannot just drop a VST synth onto a track and then put a MIDI device in front of it.
I would say Ableton is in a very good position there...
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- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
Yes, this I agree with. I've edited my post in the meantime, too.
Either I'm not aware of something in Live, or you're not aware of how this works in Bitwig. Bitwig also offers absolute, additive an multiplicative clip automation, which can be decoupled from clip's length & loop, copied & pasted and it's accessible for ALL parameters of the track & devices that are on it.Trancit wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:14 amThe problem I have with modulators like Bitwig have that they are to limited in telling them what to do at which point in time... They are easy to set up...yes... but if you want to change their behaviour in time you need a modulator for a modulator for a modulator and perhaps even then you don´t be able to achieve what you had actually in mind... With Abletons clip envelopes I can tell the modulation what EXACTLY to do at the EXACT point in time... Bitwig has clip envelopes only for a little fixed set of parameters and you cannot duplicate a region of them... there I find Ableton more flexible and more powerful...
And with regards to the difference in approach, where Bitwig's modulators work "around" currently static - or automated! - parameter value and thus can seem imprecise vs. Live's modulators that take over the currently set parameter value it's indeed something I missed at first when I switched, but I can't imagine going back to how Live does it now
It's just more flexible and fun, which I guess you captured perfectly with:-
- KVRAF
- 4476 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
Really????antic604 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:35 amEither I'm not aware of something in Live, or you're not aware of how this works in Bitwig. Bitwig also offers absolute, additive an multiplicative clip automation, which can be decoupled from clip's length & loop, copied & pasted and it's accessible for ALL parameters of the track & devices that are on it....Trancit wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:14 amThe problem I have with modulators like Bitwig have that they are to limited in telling them what to do at which point in time... They are easy to set up...yes... but if you want to change their behaviour in time you need a modulator for a modulator for a modulator and perhaps even then you don´t be able to achieve what you had actually in mind... With Abletons clip envelopes I can tell the modulation what EXACTLY to do at the EXACT point in time... Bitwig has clip envelopes only for a little fixed set of parameters and you cannot duplicate a region of them... there I find Ableton more flexible and more powerful...
I know about additive and multiplicative automation but I never managed to do this inside of a clip in the arranger ... only in Bitwigs clip launcher...
I hardly work in Session View or Clip Launcher so the only part I am interested in is the Arrange View... how do you do clip automation in the arranger in Bitwig??
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- KVRAF
- 8802 posts since 7 Oct, 2005
Personally, I like how Live is being developed and managed. I like a lot the quality of the synths and instruments they have. Push 2 has a great integration with Live and its instruments.
For some years I kept switching from DAW to DAW (including Live!) but lately it was between Live and Bitwig. In the end I liked Live Suite more than any other DAW and one of the reasons is its direction and upgrade pricing. More importantly, I like the DAW itself and its contents more It is also almost a complete environment for me (with some additional hardware and soft plugins). Yes, M4L is still slow to start and heavier than other tools, but I don't use it that much. I prefer to automate some effects parameters rather than modulate them as I need some change just in a specific place in the song not really keep changing by an LFO for example.
Oh well, I think I will stay with version 10 for few years even if version 11 is near as I feel I have everything I need, so it is better to spend/save my money for other more needed things
For some years I kept switching from DAW to DAW (including Live!) but lately it was between Live and Bitwig. In the end I liked Live Suite more than any other DAW and one of the reasons is its direction and upgrade pricing. More importantly, I like the DAW itself and its contents more
It is also almost a complete environment for me (with some additional hardware and soft plugins). Yes, M4L is still slow to start and heavier than other tools, but I don't use it that much. I prefer to automate some effects parameters rather than modulate them as I need some change just in a specific place in the song not really keep changing by an LFO for example.Oh well, I think I will stay with version 10 for few years even if version 11 is near as I feel I have everything I need, so it is better to spend/save my money for other more needed things
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- KVRian
- 620 posts since 4 Feb, 2017
You wrote "Again: Ableton is in a very very good position here... this is whining on a very high level here... imho..." and Quincy didn't like this and saw this as an 'attack' as you can read in his comment, saying this thread deteriorated. That I found exaggerated.Trancit wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 amSorry if you find my posting as a personal attack even if I cannot find any indicator for that in my words...quincy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:36 am Can I clarify whether my last post was rude or aggressive or personal to anyone?! As far as I can tell I made a very polite post with a few small suggestions within a thread about changes to Live. So that’s seems entirely within context. I also repeatedly said that I think live is a good bit of software. Which I do.
So, in summary, I politely suggest some small improvements to a piece of software that I like and use and that makes me a whiner.
Has the level of discussion around here really deteriorated that badly?!
If I perhaps expressed myself wrong and was rude be assured it wasn´t meant to be...
I just cannot agree with your accusations and wanted to start a discussion on that topic...
Peace...
Could you please quote me about the personal attacks I did???
Back to on-topic.
Last edited by Rivanni on Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
"A" is the default shortcut to open automation panel, then switch to Clip mode.
Here I'm scaling an absolute automation with a multiplicative one spanning 4 loops:
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- KVRAF
- 1922 posts since 15 Nov, 2003 from London, UK
No worries. You quoted my post and then said it was whining but clearly no offence intended. I’m not trying to whine, just make constructive suggestions for improvement. For balance, I have actually emailed Bitwig support to suggest features from Ableton so it’s all for the greater good of improving all this software we use. They both have features that at the other would benefit from.Trancit wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 am Sorry if you find my posting as a personal attack even if I cannot find any indicator for that in my words...
If I perhaps expressed myself wrong and was rude be assured it wasn´t meant to be...
I just cannot agree with your accusations and wanted to start a discussion on that topic...
Peace...
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- KVRian
- 912 posts since 18 Feb, 2004
For the non-native English speakers here (at least American English): saying someone is "whining" about something is generally derogatory. What I would say in the same context is that someone is "nit-picking" meaning trying to find small faults in something. That being said...every piece of software in existence has faultsquincy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:53 amNo worries. You quoted my post and then said it was whining but clearly no offence intended. I’m not trying to whine, just make constructive suggestions for improvement. For balance, I have actually emailed Bitwig support to suggest features from Ableton so it’s all for the greater good of improving all this software we use. They both have features that at the other would benefit from.Trancit wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 am Sorry if you find my posting as a personal attack even if I cannot find any indicator for that in my words...
If I perhaps expressed myself wrong and was rude be assured it wasn´t meant to be...
I just cannot agree with your accusations and wanted to start a discussion on that topic...
Peace...
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- KVRAF
- 4476 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
Ah, ok... I already thought so that it´s about that...
Perhaps this would be misunderstood... I tried to translate this from my native language...
This is not meant personal...
Can some native english perhaps explain me what he thinks that shall mean???
Would be interesting for me...
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- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
An equivalent of "whining" in any language is generally negative, as it means ill-spirited, unfounded and unjust criticismrezoneight wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:54 pmFor the non-native English speakers here (at least American English): saying someone is "whining" about something is generally derogatory.
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- KVRAF
- 4476 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
