Ableton Live 4 versus Cubase

[pHz]

[devils advocate]

musician noun
1 someone who is skilled in music, especially in performing or composing it.
2 someone who performs or composes music as their profession.

musicianly adj. musicianship noun skill in music.

[/devils advocate]

slainte rob

[TVD]

Live 4 for me. It enables you to get a track going quicker than any other host I've used. The warp tools really are so much more than just pitch shifters and slicers for audio. They enable you to work very fast and break down/build up your tracks in many fascinating ways.

Plus its just bloody good fun

That's right brother!!! Live 4 for life!!!

[Rabid]

[devils advocate]

musician noun
1 someone who is skilled in music, especially in performing or composing it.
2 someone who performs or composes music as their profession.

musicianly adj. musicianship noun skill in music.

[/devils advocate]

slainte rob

Good find, "performing" being the optimum word there. But hey, maybe I sould not argue. I can dump some video from my Tivo to the computer, edit and rearrange the clips, and then tell people I am an actor.

Robert

[quincy]

Live 4 for me. It enables you to get a track going quicker than any other host I've used. The warp tools really are so much more than just pitch shifters and slicers for audio. They enable you to work very fast and break down/build up your tracks in many fascinating ways.

Plus its just bloody good fun

That's right brother!!! Live 4 for life!!!

Testify

[shamann]

Good find, "performing" being the optimum word there.

I have too little energy to argue today, but why is performing the optimum word? You may choose it to be so, but Quincy could easily choose composing to be the optimum word there.

And if a DJ's qualification as a musician is debatable, at least the DJ's status as a performer can be agreed upon, no? Perhaps performing someone else's music, but still within the purview.

Cheers,
Steve

[SJ_Digriz]

why does it matter, dj's keep on djing. performers keep on performing. musicians keep on musicianing <-made up that word for this post. Let's get back to the topic.

I had no intention to deride DJ's or Loopers or Dance genre music production. Seriously, I have no problem with it. Everyone likes different stuff.

My point was simple. Certain type of musical production are easier to do in Live. Certain types are easier to do in Cubase. There are efficiencies and defficenicies in both that may or may not present themselves to you depending on how you work.

And just on another thought on Live. The interface is butt ugly. It makes my eyes bleed.

[shamann]

My point was simple. Certain type of musical production are easier to do in Live. Certain types are easier to do in Cubase. There are efficiencies and defficenicies in both that may or may not present themselves to you depending on how you work.

I fully agree with the simple point.

And just on another thought on Live. The interface is butt ugly. It makes my eyes bleed.

I sort of agree, too. I wouldn't say butt ugly, I really like the circle/line knobs, but I find the interface too busy, and tedious in the extreme. But then I can't stand any of those crammed multitrack view interfaces, like they kept saying as they were designing "Oh, and another thing we need to add in..." Bleh.

[ericj23]

OK devils advocate here

a good dj - and i dont mean pete tong - i mean q-bert et al - can use a tiny bit of a song and scratch it so it doesnt sound like the original record in order

to get a range of tones out of it, which he then uses in coherent rhythmic patterns in order to construct a "song"

a musican plays an instrument

to get a range of tones out of it, which he then uses in coherent rhythmic patterns in order to construct a "song"


looks pretty similar to me - they both use skills to make noises that form some part of a musical composition

Now i know entirely why people hate djs who get paid a fortune to play other peoples records - but mixologists or whatever you want to call the scratch obsessed are not even vaguley doing the same thing

if einsturdzen neubauten is music than so is q-bert !

[soulkraka]

Maybe I should be more clear on my views here.

I DO NOT consider DJ's (house music dj's for example) that play others people music by matching beats to be musicians. I DO think that the "art" of turntablism has elevated the status of the turntable to a musical instrument though.

Has anyone ever seen DJ Swamp create melodys and songs using test tone records? To me the only room for opinion is whether you LIKE it or not. They are clearly musicians in my book.

SJ, I take it you dont consider someone like Prefuse 73 to be a musician either? composer maybe? He uses pretty much just an MPC to create his songs. Don't know if you've heard him but he takes really small samples off records like reverb tails (to create pads for example) and single drum hits and makes all his tracks from those bits. Similiar to what a good turntablist does actually.


If you dont think Prefuse 73 (scott herron) is a musician then have a listen to his band Savath and Savalas. Link below.

http://www.warprecords.com/bleep/?listen=WARP115-03

[SJ_Digriz]

Ok guys, one more time. Don't worry about if DJ's are musicians or not. It's another one of those stupid labels that doesn't matter in the least. Lets press on discussing the diff between Live and Cubase.

What started this nonsense is my suggestion that loopers/dj's/dance genre peeps would be more inclined to use Live. And that someone who uses musical instruments and records live would be better off with Cubase. I think my negative opinion of those mediums caused the rucus and I'm sorry for it.

Back to the apps I say !!!

[Rabid]

... I DO NOT consider DJ's (house music dj's for example) that play others people music by matching beats to be musicians. I DO think that the "art" of turntablism has elevated the status of the turntable to a musical instrument though.

...

I totally agree with this and consider those good with turntables to be jsut as valid as a good percussionists. (Drums was my first "good" instrument.)

What I was getting at is people who do nothing more than string a bunch of loops together, and then insist on being called a musician. I feel the same way about people who hit a note on a Korg Karma and let the machine do the playing. That does not make you a musician. The difference in these two examples is at least the person stringing the loops together is creating an arrangement. Good arrangers are very much needed in music. It is a valid talent that can pay off in remix contracts. But a remix artist is not a musician. I'm not saying they are less than a musician. It is just different areas and different talents. Most musicians suck at arranging. In a lot of popular, long lasting bands you will find composers and arrangers that are seperate from the front line performer. As long as the three respect each other the band rakes in money. When one decides to go solo they all usually disapear.

I've used Acid to chop up and rearrange bass loops into different patterns. But when I play the song for someone I don't claim to have played it as a musician because I know in my heart that I did not play a single note. I do take credit for creating it because I really did chop up that loop and create something new. However, if I painted the loops in without changing any melodies, rhythms or licks then I only arranged the song. I may have created a great arrangement and may be very proud of it, but I am proud of arranging the song, not playing it.

Why does it bother me if someone that only arranges patterns claims to be a musician? Well, because musicians spend years practicing. Even turntablists. To present a song made up of MIDI drum loops, synth arps, Acid loops of guitar and sax, and nice rhymic scratches and claim "I played this" is an insult to all musicians who work hard to develop skills.

Robert

[soulkraka]

Lets press on discussing the diff between Live and Cubase.



Back to the apps I say !!!

naaaa, this hijack is way more interesting IMO

[shamann]

Why does it bother me if someone that only arranges patterns claims to be a musician? Well, because musicians spend years practicing. Even turntablists. To present a song made up of MIDI drum loops, synth arps, Acid loops of guitar and sax, and nice rhymic scratches and claim "I played this" is an insult to all musicians who work hard to develop skills.

I think I know why I've given you a hard time up until now, Robert. You're ascribing a value onto the term musician. In your own words, musicians spend years practicing. But they don't inherently. Musicians who spend years practicing are those who do so, but the doing so is a separate act from being a musician.

Consider, in your scenario, what's a bad musician? The notion of "bad musician" exists in our culture, yet generally they are not those who practice years to develop their skill. It becomes easy to accept DJs in this purview, as it doesn't speak to their skill or dedication, only to their creation of music.

Under either definition, I could be considered a musician, but I really don't see the difference between skillsets as both require dedication to rise above the fray. My piano-playing is only as good as the time I put into it, just as my skills with music software have taken years of practice.

It's a strange way of thinking quite common to our age. We've designed these marvelous tools in the form of computers, and then we do everything we can to classify them as separate from everything else in our experience. This is real, but this is a computer.

I know you're looking at that sort of "whip up my new loop CD in Fruity and call me a producer" situation, but quality can still be found even if you loosen the categories. Saying you don't like it I think is perfectly acceptable, but saying that it doesn't fit within an infallible hierarchy is a bit harder to sell.

Cheers,
Steve

[quincy]

Why does it bother me if someone that only arranges patterns claims to be a musician? Well, because musicians spend years practicing. Even turntablists. To present a song made up of MIDI drum loops, synth arps, Acid loops of guitar and sax, and nice rhymic scratches and claim "I played this" is an insult to all musicians who work hard to develop skills.

I think I know why I've given you a hard time up until now, Robert. You're ascribing a value onto the term musician. In your own words, musicians spend years practicing. But they don't inherently. Musicians who spend years practicing are those who do so, but the doing so is a separate act from being a musician.

Consider, in your scenario, what's a bad musician? The notion of "bad musician" exists in our culture, yet generally they are not those who practice years to develop their skill. It becomes easy to accept DJs in this purview, as it doesn't speak to their skill or dedication, only to their creation of music.

Under either definition, I could be considered a musician, but I really don't see the difference between skillsets as both require dedication to rise above the fray. My piano-playing is only as good as the time I put into it, just as my skills with music software have taken years of practice.

It's a strange way of thinking quite common to our age. We've designed these marvelous tools in the form of computers, and then we do everything we can to classify them as separate from everything else in our experience. This is real, but this is a computer.

I know you're looking at that sort of "whip up my new loop CD in Fruity and call me a producer" situation, but quality can still be found even if you loosen the categories. Saying you don't like it I think is perfectly acceptable, but saying that it doesn't fit within an infallible hierarchy is a bit harder to sell.

Cheers,
Steve

Bloody well said

[bagginz]

Hi Guys,

I have seen this (interesting) debate come up time and time again.

My view is that the core of this debate is that we no longer have sufficiently defined terms to describe the new surge in music technology that has occurred over the last 20 years or so and especially computer technology over the last 10 years.

For example: Musician is synonymous with INSTRUMENTALIST. Also with COMPOSER. Also with ARRANGER. Also with MUSIC PERFORMER.

Therein lies the confusion. And the fuel for much debate.

A hundred years ago, how could you possibly be a music arranger, performer or composer if you were not also an instrumentalist?

How would you compose, arrange or perform? On what?

You would need a thorough understanding of musical instruments and music theory in order to compose or arrange for others. Along with the fully developed musical ear that comes with mastering an instrument.

Performance also. If you cannot play some kind of instrument manually, how can you perform? (voice is undisputably an instrument)

But now with samplers, sequencers, looping software etc. you CAN perform music without any knowledge of how music is made or (traditionally) constructed.

Likewise you can COMPOSE and PERFORM without ever needing to find out what scale goes with what chords etc.

So, times have changed but our language hasn't -which leads us our ever popular debate...

So, if we are at all interested in clarity, (which I very much doubt ) we need to define some new terms to reflect our changed reality.

Just to get the ball rolling, I propose (something like):

MUSICIAN = One that works with music in any way shape or form. (cue the absurd exceptions...)

COMPOSER = One that composes music in any way shape or form. (scoring for full orchestra, or with loops in Live or Acid)

INSTRUMENTALIST = one who has some degree of mastery over an instrument. (Guitar, turntable, Abysinian Nose Flute...)

PERCUSSIONIST = one who plays a musical instrument which has only the rhythm element and no pitch dimension.

PERFORMER = Someone that does any of the above publically.

MUSICAL INSTRUMENT = Anything that can be manipulated to produce sound for the purpose of making music, which would include a computer with sound producing software.

DJ = someone that gets paid money for playing other peoples musical compositions and is happy to take full credit for them as being his own

Of course I don't expect that anybody will take the idea of defining new terms seriously - because it is clearly much more fun to argue about it...

But thanks for listening...

Cheers,
bilbo bagginz


Ex-professonal session guitarist.
Composer of Jazz, Blues, Pop, Rock and Electronica.
Also professional Dance Music producer, Professional DJ and live Trance music performer.

Cosmosis, Mumbo-Jumbo etc...