Honest question for mac users

[Dafydd Powell]

One person will never understand how or why or what another person does and somtimes that other person thinks they understand why but its really something else that they only discover much later or it may not matter and then wrong may turn out to be exactly right or then change back to wrong again or something totally arbitrary like there is no right or wrong at all and we will look back late in life and perhaps wonder why we even bought a computer and didn't spend that money chasing beautiful women in Paris?

That is exactly what I'm trying to do with this thread - understand the choices of those who disagree with me from their perspective. It is true that I may never understand but I thought I should at least try to. I basically wanted to see the benefits of mac, for music specifically, with an open mind.

[Hink]

And there's more. Mac OS is harder to fix problems with and in my few months of using it I came across more of them than I have in 11 years of Windows usage (such as files and apps behaving weirdly), less intuitive to use (again I used it for months so it's not that I didn't take the time to learn the basics), you actually still can get malware on mac OS (only time I've ever gotten it was on mac), and there's more but this is already getting really long, and I'd rathewr hear what you have to say first.

Cool story bro, so you bought a Mac, when and which one?

Than you used it for few months, but managed to get malware on it and screw up whole system? Which one, where, what, warez, porn sites, what did you do?

2011 macbook pro. I got Flashback in 2012, google it if you dont know what that is. All I did was click on a link to update flash player, and poof, trojan. Didnt even know I had it for a few weeks, couldve been dangerous.

I like how you accuse me of lying because you dont believe that macs can get malware. This worldwide assumption macs are invincible and cannot get malware is only the result of a several year long marketing campaign by apple, and it isnt true at all, while they are still less likely than pcs to get malware.

I like how you make assumptions about what I “believe” in, only asked you to back up your story. So you used mac for few months in 2012 and waited for 8 years to open this pointless thread about your experience....

I have made it abundantly clear I am watching this thread and that's obviously because of the topic and the history of these threads. Then of course there's watching to see where these threads go bad, obviously most do go bad. Here's the thing, a thread like this is not always for trolling purposes and I am not going to assume someone is a troll just because they start a thread like this...yes it raises red flags, I hit subscribe and watch, but to assume such a thing is not fair to any new member.

What we dont need is an inquisition or a mob with torches, your posts only have to do with discrediting the op's intentions and this is a common theme in threads that get ugly. Trust me, I'm watching because I do know how these threads are...but please, there is no reason to push it that way.

FTR this applies to all posting in this thread

[jancivil]

To clarify my "bullshit", the OP could be bored and lonely with no one to talk to, but it's still lighting a flame to do it. I don't really buy the original post as an honest enquiry into the subject; posting specifically a story like that (as though one anecdote means more than it is) is a red flag, either signaling disingenous or stupid ("All I did was click on a link to update flash player, and poof, trojan." Thanks for that. ).

Of all things to talk about (on a forum one previously has shown next-to-no interest in), an axe to grind on an Operating System is that kind of sign.

All sorts of people are getting on famously with their choice of OS and machine, and all sorts seem to experience what to-me seems an unusual degree of difficulty, and all sorts are just malcontents.

As an affirmation of the getting on with it and of an early issue of the kind you say "Apple, wtf", I bought the 8.1 MBO last month. Yes, it costs too much.
I didn't care to do anything in the Cubase before I got the audio interface, as I knew from the latency in not having better drivers than the onboard, and preferred not. My life can change.
So, I get this somewhat expensive device (overkill in a big way), because of the drivers touted. Something_something Direct Memory Address. Yeah, I don't understand it to talk about it, but it requires the Thunderbolt tech for that to even be a thing. Quantum series by Presonus. So, I plug it in to the wall, plug the thing into the MBP, turn it on and it's a brick. But, I doubt that right out out the box it's a stiff like that. So like a lot of other Apple bidness with the OS protecting itself, you have to tell the OS up in the Sys Prefs that it's ok to install this thing. It has these novel drivers w. teh DMA, others reporting installing it 3 times before it's working. Ok, now it's working. Shortly after this, no video will run from Chrome or Safari and I'm about to install Firefox when I call Apple support. She immediately went to <Safe Mode> and after I came back and said 'no change' she put me on hold to ask somebody something. Dawns on me, Safe Mode/these fancy drivers, so I did the thing a smart person will have already done, turned the Quantum thing off.
And now the internet videos play fine, I can let Apple Support Lady go. Oddly, turning it back on did not kill internet video. Weird symptom to me, but I don't know a lot.
Then I get back to work and my latency is unbelievably low. The whole narrative 'Cubase runs like ass on a Mac' is in the end about drivers (or your system has a real-time bottleneck, some device is not playing nice). I didn't buy anything for years because my experience is stuff that's fantastic on Windows is not necessarily that on Mac because Core Audio is simply not ASIO. The Windows benchmarks are not relevant; Cubase translates Core Audio to ASIO in a .bundle thingy. Super-low latency is not magically provided by say RME and its drivers. Steinberg interface, got one inexpensively, 100% worthless to Core Audio. The experience now is dreamlike, I have perfect performance in Cubase on a Mac. (And 26 in and 26 out I'm not going to be using anytime soon.)

Upshot: apparently any moron, even one in cognitive decline like me, can manage this kind of a system. The way Apple protects the idiot user from herself is irritating in some of the manifestations, and the security of it now means for a certain kind of user this extra step or two, as opposed to the any idiot can fire it up and it 'just works'.
The original post sounds like someone trying to f**k an OS over. I go back to when the advice from all over was basically turn most of Windows XP off, all the network stuff, so many background services off, and I was surely not the best manager of a computer system anyway but it was not a happy or productive period. I moved to OSX, 10.2. At that time people did get 'Process Wizard' on there and kill certain not-useful processes, but it was not the burden of XP, on a pretty much same powered machine. Neither machine was up to the task of the time, these the days of server farms for real composers, and cost was an object. Obv., turning everything off like that is a sign the computer isn't up to it. It's not the OS for it, it's a business machine (networks running). Yet, people managed better than I did and got on with it. Early days.
OSX is deliberately made to be not as easy to fug with. If yez don't like this, yez free to run Windows. Who cares.

[Passing Bye]

Sorry, I thought you were trying to accuse me of lying. I didn't start this thread because of that experience, I just wanted to know, as I've explained countless times by now, people's reasoning for using macs. This thought popped into my head 2 minutes before I started the thread, not 8 years.

People use Windows, macOS, Linux or whatever because that's their preference based on their own experience, there's people with horror stories and limited experience like yourself's on every side, I mean there's no shortage of mac guys talking almost same stuff as you for Windows.

I have great experience on all my OS's over years because I use my audio computer for music making primarily, whatever OS runs my DAW the best, I will use it, I don't rush upgrading, first inform myself before I upgrade to anything, never had any issues on both Windows or macOS, you ask why we got into particular systems, because we want to make music, there's great studio monitors for 500 bucks and 1000 bucks, there's not that huge difference between them, but there was some kind of preference there prevailing, not everything is about saving up and having great deal on paper, why risk something good trying to save few bucks, dunno about you, but I got into computers because of music, not other way around, whatever works the best, I'm on it, Bitwig works like a charm on Windows, I'm using Windows now.

Dunno, some audio folks would disregard plenty of laptops based on their DPC latency numbers, plenty of others earn enough to afford most laptops on the market, it's not like everyone is tech geek trying to save every buck or into cores per buck or whatever calculations, lot off audio folks aren't religious about their OS choice, not all, there's professionals who are tech geeks and what have you, but to put things in perspective, some people just don't care about same stuff as some others do.

Seriously wish that DAW makers had list of supported brand name machines, so we could get something that will get us least headaches, people who want to DIY or whatever should than be SOL, there's price to pay for everything, dunno, Avid have list of supported machines and people choose macOS because they really support Apple machines, they also support HP too, so why risk secure thing, because AMD have new Ryzen stuff coming out and now you are trying to see whether that mobo supports your audio interfaces or whatever, better waste little more money on computer and little more time on music instead of troubleshooting stuff like that, but each to his own.

[paulm12]

Alright, fine, I’ll bite.
I used PCs for years, and always had problems with lemons, having to reinstall operating systems, etc. I thought this was part of what it meant to own a computer. I got my first MacBook Pro in the late 2000s because I wanted Logic. First solid computer I ever got, and I still have it and it works with no problems (over a decade old). I have had other MacBooks and Mac Desktops since then, also with very few to no problems (although I do think Apple’s engineering has gone down a bit recently and don’t plan on switching to ARM at any time).
As for cost, it doesn’t make sense to compare a build-your-own PC to a customized Mac. If you compare a similarly pre-built PC to a Mac, you’ll end up with a much smaller gap, with Macs being more expensive of course. However, if you factor in TCO (total cost of ownership), you get that PCs are 3 times the cost to manage and have twice the number of support calls on average.
For music production, I think Macs are the clear winner (for YEARS I ran FL and Live on a MacBook Pro running Windows XP because Vista was a fiasco, it was the best running windows computer I ever had). They have a better internal soundcard than most windows computers with comparatively less latency. Most PC users have to get an external soundcard, especially when it comes to laptops. With a Mac, it is nice to not have to bring an interface when traveling.
When you buy a Mac, you know what you’re getting. No BS bloatware, no cheap components or corners cut on the audio side, and good support if you ever do have a problem. With a PC, you can get bounced back between Microsoft and your CSM (Computer System Manufacturers) when you run into a problem
If you do any sort of development, I find that a Unix-based operating system is a clear winner. Yeah you can argue about Powershell and OS/2 all you want, but Unix is better in a lot of ways in my opinion. Plus its familiar for those of us who do work on servers.
To me, the big drawback to OSX is simply software support, however for me the pros far outweigh the cons.
With a Mac, if you do decide to upgrade, you can restore your entire system (VSTs and all) to its previous state without having to edit any registry files or reinstall anything. You get integration with cloud backup (although iCloud now works with windows), which keeps all my performance laptops/backups in sync with each other whenever I add a song to one. If you’re recording, you can be pretty sure the computer you get will be QUIET.
I like not building my own computer because that means if I ever do have a problem nobody can blame anything I did. I can go on and on. People make great music on both Macs and Windows. If you don’t like Macs, fine, but those of us who do have our reasons

Hi, I am fully aware that PCs used to be bad. It's actually only been since 2017 or 18 that they are really good, I do have to admit that I used to just accept the issues and deal with them. However, the problems were never that hard to deal with. Also, bloatware is exceedingly less common on Windows now than it used to be, and it literally takes 2 minutes to remove it all if you do have any in the first place. It seems like the way PCs used to be has gotten their reputation down a lot over the years, because Windows 10's security nowadays is actually excellent, as is its reliability, etc. But I see where you are coming from, I too have owned a Vista machine and yeah it wasn't good to say the least. Neither was 8 imo.

I know unix - based devices have their fair share of things that are just better for things such as development, this question was strictly for music production. The sound card issue is much rarer these days on all but the cheapest laptops (and certainly on ones that cost as much as even the cheapest macbook money can buy). Macs are quiet, sure. But that tends to be because the CPU isn't being cooled properly. I would rather get a PC and configure it to be quieter (through fan curve configuration, which surprisingly tends not to void your warranty), and then still have a small chance of my CPU running at speeds that are not below its base clock, but I get that this is a hassle and would deter some people who just want to make music without becoming half an IT technician. However, quiet and even fanless laptops can be purchased too, but I will give you that you have to go to the effort of finding them, which you don't with apple because they only make 2 laptops. My dad's 2016 15" macbook pro is actually the loudest laptop I've ever heard by the way, and that isn't a joke. But i guess he must have got a lemon.

As for your interface not being needed on travels debate, how so? If you want to use an XLR mic, you'll need one anyway, and if what you're doing is DJing or just playing back, you don't need one as you either would be absolutely fine without it (in the case of playing back), or would have an interface built in to your DJ controller as most decent ones do.

Interested to hear your reply. Thank you for considering my arguments and presenting your own instead of just accusing me of trying to start flame wars.

I agree about Windows, although I did quite like 7 (the whole metro thing with 8 kinda pissed me off a bit but maybe I'm just old school). A lot of it probably has less to do with the OS though, I'm still used to windows more than I am OSX because we use windows where I work too. In my opinion, Microsoft really started turning things around starting with the surface, however I've known people to have problems with them. My GF is a huge mac hater, and bought a surface pro (which I encouraged her to do) which crapped out after 2-3 years. An old roommate gave her a (really old) macbook air, and she reluctantly admitted she likes this more than her surface (although I do love the surfaces still and think its one of the best products microsoft has made recently).
I guess my point is that while PCs have improved, I still haven't personally experienced the same level of consistency as Macs. Apple has had their T2 issue and the keyboard thing which was unacceptable in my opinion. But Microsoft released the Surface Pro X which in my opinion was a disaster (but I'm not sure this is microsoft's fault). Funnily enough, I think I like Microsoft as a company better than Apple.
That's really surprising about the noise; I have a 2015 Macbook Pro which runs even quieter than my newest one.
I'm a Trance producer and DJ, so I usually don't need any mics or go to the studio with a vocalist if I do. As a result, the built-in soundcard on my Mac is enough for all of these tasks, including setting up an aggregate soundcard for running Traktor in HID mode (a task I wouldn't trust a stock Windows laptop with after having issues with some older notebooks). I can think of only 1-2 times a mac has crashed on me during a performance and this is after 8+ years of performing with them. That's a good enough ratio for me to not really have a desire to try a PC for these tasks, even if it would save me over $1000 on my next computer purchase. When it comes to audio applications and stability (particularly for live performance), the advantage that macs have is exactly what you described: there are only a few pieces of hardware that it will be running on, generally from the same developers and doesn't change much from year to year. It becomes a lot easier for developers to fix any bugs or issues when the system they are developing on has the same hardware that you do, from the same vendors, and likely with similar drivers. This is true across different mac models but also across the history of mac models that are over 10 years old. Apple likes to have a lot of (too much) control over their system, but the advantage here is everything works really well inside their ecosystem, and they are the ones who get to quality control the parts and test out their computers and their OS. Its a completely different philosophy to PCs, and one that even took me time to get used to.
Finally, I have also heard a nontrivial number of PCs sound like garbage when using the headphone out trying to do any music work (which I believe to be a soundcard issue). I like the idea of building my own PC, but for live performance I don't trust myself to go through the process of making sure all drivers will work happily together and as a result its something I simply do not bother with and would rather throw money at to go away. This has been an issue many I know of have had, particularly with DPC latency and bad drivers which causes their built PC to have weird spikes and what sounds like underruns.
I'm a bit of an oddball in that I like doing some small development-like tasks involving music production (like making some very basic VSTs that I would never use in a live setting haha).

Once again, I am not trying to convince you macs are better (because I don't think there's even an answer to that question). Just explaining what my rationale is. For me, money isn't a huge part of the equation but stability is. In other words, I often travel with my Laptop and a Native Instruments controller (NI has a similar philosophy as Apple, especially with Traktor), and averaging 3-4 events a week, I can easily take home $1000s of dollars over the span of a few days. In other words, I don't mind spending more on a system that is reliable and I can trust. Especially because my laptop is the "center" of all of the work I do. Considering that my computers often last as long as most cars, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to spending the same amount of money on a computer as I do the vehicle that I use to get to each gig. And the car analogy is a good one to me; some people like spending a lot of money on a car that they know will work and fit their needs, while others like the idea of saving money and putting in all the right parts to get the performance they want.

[Hink]

you guys are nuts, I'm never gonna go online and brag about my computer's reliability...sure as shit it'll make a liar of me if I do

[Dafydd Powell]

To clarify my "bullshit", the OP could be bored and lonely with no one to talk to, but it's still lighting a flame to do it. I don't really buy the original post as an honest enquiry into the subject; posting specifically a story like that (as though one anecdote means more than it is) is a red flag, either signaling disingenous or stupid ("All I did was click on a link to update flash player, and poof, trojan." Thanks for that. ).

Of all things to talk about (on a forum one previously has shown next-to-no interest in), an axe to grind on an Operating System is that kind of sign.

All sorts of people are getting on famously with their choice of OS and machine, and all sorts seem to experience what to-me seems an unusual degree of difficulty, and all sorts are just malcontents.

As an affirmation of the getting on with it and of an early issue of the kind you say "Apple, wtf", I bought the 8.1 MBO last month. Yes, it costs too much.
I didn't care to do anything in the Cubase before I got the audio interface, as I knew from the latency in not having better drivers than the onboard, and preferred not. My life can change.
So, I get this somewhat expensive device (overkill in a big way), because of the drivers touted. Something_something Direct Memory Address. Yeah, I don't understand it to talk about it, but it requires the Thunderbolt tech for that to even be a thing. Quantum series by Presonus. So, I plug it in to the wall, plug the thing into the MBP, turn it on and it's a brick. But, I doubt that right out out the box it's a stiff like that. So like a lot of other Apple bidness with the OS protecting itself, you have to tell the OS up in the Sys Prefs that it's ok to install this thing. It has these novel drivers w. teh DMA, others reporting installing it 3 times before it's working. Ok, now it's working. Shortly after this, no video will run from Chrome or Safari and I'm about to install Firefox when I call Apple support. She immediately went to <Safe Mode> and after I came back and said 'no change' she put me on hold to ask somebody something. Dawns on me, Safe Mode/these fancy drivers, so I did the thing a smart person will have already done, turned the Quantum thing off.
And now the internet videos play fine, I can let Apple Support Lady go. Oddly, turning it back on did not kill internet video. Weird symptom to me, but I don't know a lot.
Then I get back to work and my latency is unbelievably low. The whole narrative 'Cubase runs like ass on a Mac' is in the end about drivers (or your system has a real-time bottleneck, some device is not playing nice). I didn't buy anything for years because my experience is stuff that's fantastic on Windows is not necessarily that on Mac because Core Audio is simply not ASIO. The Windows benchmarks are not relevant; Cubase translates Core Audio to ASIO in a .bundle thingy. Super-low latency is not magically provided by say RME and its drivers. Steinberg interface, got one inexpensively, 100% worthless to Core Audio. The experience now is dreamlike, I have perfect performance in Cubase on a Mac. (And 26 in and 26 out I'm not going to be using anytime soon.)

Upshot: apparently any moron, even one in cognitive decline like me, can manage this kind of a system. The way Apple protects the idiot user from herself is irritating in some of the manifestations, and the security of it now means for a certain kind of user this extra step or two, as opposed to the any idiot can fire it up and it 'just works'.
The original post sounds like someone trying to f**k an OS over. I go back to when the advice from all over was basically turn most of Windows XP off, all the network stuff, so many background services off, and I was surely not the best manager of a computer system anyway but it was not a happy or productive period. I moved to OSX, 10.2. At that time people did get 'Process Wizard' on there and kill certain not-useful processes, but it was not the burden of XP, on a pretty much same powered machine. Neither machine was up to the task of the time, these the days of server farms for real composers, and cost was an object. Obv., turning everything off like that is a sign the computer isn't up to it. It's not the OS for it, it's a business machine (networks running). Yet, people managed better than I did and got on with it. Early days.
OSX is deliberately made to be not as easy to fug with. If yez don't like this, yez free to run Windows. Who cares.

Thunderbolt exists on PC too. It's literally just usb type c. That not allowing me to change things I needed to change in the OS was one of the things I hated about mac os, so its funny you mention it. Deleting this conversation soon, cant be bothered anymore. (not just because of you dont be offended)

Edit: fixed typing mistake

[Dafydd Powell]

Alright, fine, I’ll bite.
I used PCs for years, and always had problems with lemons, having to reinstall operating systems, etc. I thought this was part of what it meant to own a computer. I got my first MacBook Pro in the late 2000s because I wanted Logic. First solid computer I ever got, and I still have it and it works with no problems (over a decade old). I have had other MacBooks and Mac Desktops since then, also with very few to no problems (although I do think Apple’s engineering has gone down a bit recently and don’t plan on switching to ARM at any time).
As for cost, it doesn’t make sense to compare a build-your-own PC to a customized Mac. If you compare a similarly pre-built PC to a Mac, you’ll end up with a much smaller gap, with Macs being more expensive of course. However, if you factor in TCO (total cost of ownership), you get that PCs are 3 times the cost to manage and have twice the number of support calls on average.
For music production, I think Macs are the clear winner (for YEARS I ran FL and Live on a MacBook Pro running Windows XP because Vista was a fiasco, it was the best running windows computer I ever had). They have a better internal soundcard than most windows computers with comparatively less latency. Most PC users have to get an external soundcard, especially when it comes to laptops. With a Mac, it is nice to not have to bring an interface when traveling.
When you buy a Mac, you know what you’re getting. No BS bloatware, no cheap components or corners cut on the audio side, and good support if you ever do have a problem. With a PC, you can get bounced back between Microsoft and your CSM (Computer System Manufacturers) when you run into a problem
If you do any sort of development, I find that a Unix-based operating system is a clear winner. Yeah you can argue about Powershell and OS/2 all you want, but Unix is better in a lot of ways in my opinion. Plus its familiar for those of us who do work on servers.
To me, the big drawback to OSX is simply software support, however for me the pros far outweigh the cons.
With a Mac, if you do decide to upgrade, you can restore your entire system (VSTs and all) to its previous state without having to edit any registry files or reinstall anything. You get integration with cloud backup (although iCloud now works with windows), which keeps all my performance laptops/backups in sync with each other whenever I add a song to one. If you’re recording, you can be pretty sure the computer you get will be QUIET.
I like not building my own computer because that means if I ever do have a problem nobody can blame anything I did. I can go on and on. People make great music on both Macs and Windows. If you don’t like Macs, fine, but those of us who do have our reasons

Hi, I am fully aware that PCs used to be bad. It's actually only been since 2017 or 18 that they are really good, I do have to admit that I used to just accept the issues and deal with them. However, the problems were never that hard to deal with. Also, bloatware is exceedingly less common on Windows now than it used to be, and it literally takes 2 minutes to remove it all if you do have any in the first place. It seems like the way PCs used to be has gotten their reputation down a lot over the years, because Windows 10's security nowadays is actually excellent, as is its reliability, etc. But I see where you are coming from, I too have owned a Vista machine and yeah it wasn't good to say the least. Neither was 8 imo.

I know unix - based devices have their fair share of things that are just better for things such as development, this question was strictly for music production. The sound card issue is much rarer these days on all but the cheapest laptops (and certainly on ones that cost as much as even the cheapest macbook money can buy). Macs are quiet, sure. But that tends to be because the CPU isn't being cooled properly. I would rather get a PC and configure it to be quieter (through fan curve configuration, which surprisingly tends not to void your warranty), and then still have a small chance of my CPU running at speeds that are not below its base clock, but I get that this is a hassle and would deter some people who just want to make music without becoming half an IT technician. However, quiet and even fanless laptops can be purchased too, but I will give you that you have to go to the effort of finding them, which you don't with apple because they only make 2 laptops. My dad's 2016 15" macbook pro is actually the loudest laptop I've ever heard by the way, and that isn't a joke. But i guess he must have got a lemon.

As for your interface not being needed on travels debate, how so? If you want to use an XLR mic, you'll need one anyway, and if what you're doing is DJing or just playing back, you don't need one as you either would be absolutely fine without it (in the case of playing back), or would have an interface built in to your DJ controller as most decent ones do.

Interested to hear your reply. Thank you for considering my arguments and presenting your own instead of just accusing me of trying to start flame wars.

I agree about Windows, although I did quite like 7 (the whole metro thing with 8 kinda pissed me off a bit but maybe I'm just old school). A lot of it probably has less to do with the OS though, I'm still used to windows more than I am OSX because we use windows where I work too. In my opinion, Microsoft really started turning things around starting with the surface, however I've known people to have problems with them. My GF is a huge mac hater, and bought a surface pro (which I encouraged her to do) which crapped out after 2-3 years. An old roommate gave her a (really old) macbook air, and she reluctantly admitted she likes this more than her surface (although I do love the surfaces still and think its one of the best products microsoft has made recently).
I guess my point is that while PCs have improved, I still haven't personally experienced the same level of consistency as Macs. Apple has had their T2 issue and the keyboard thing which was unacceptable in my opinion. But Microsoft released the Surface Pro X which in my opinion was a disaster (but I'm not sure this is microsoft's fault). Funnily enough, I think I like Microsoft as a company better than Apple.
That's really surprising about the noise; I have a 2015 Macbook Pro which runs even quieter than my newest one.
I'm a Trance producer and DJ, so I usually don't need any mics or go to the studio with a vocalist if I do. As a result, the built-in soundcard on my Mac is enough for all of these tasks, including setting up an aggregate soundcard for running Traktor in HID mode (a task I wouldn't trust a stock Windows laptop with after having issues with some older notebooks). I can think of only 1-2 times a mac has crashed on me during a performance and this is after 8+ years of performing with them. That's a good enough ratio for me to not really have a desire to try a PC for these tasks, even if it would save me over $1000 on my next computer purchase. When it comes to audio applications and stability (particularly for live performance), the advantage that macs have is exactly what you described: there are only a few pieces of hardware that it will be running on, generally from the same developers and doesn't change much from year to year. It becomes a lot easier for developers to fix any bugs or issues when the system they are developing on has the same hardware that you do, from the same vendors, and likely with similar drivers. This is true across different mac models but also across the history of mac models that are over 10 years old. Apple likes to have a lot of (too much) control over their system, but the advantage here is everything works really well inside their ecosystem, and they are the ones who get to quality control the parts and test out their computers and their OS. Its a completely different philosophy to PCs, and one that even took me time to get used to.
Finally, I have also heard a nontrivial number of PCs sound like garbage when using the headphone out trying to do any music work (which I believe to be a soundcard issue). I like the idea of building my own PC, but for live performance I don't trust myself to go through the process of making sure all drivers will work happily together and as a result its something I simply do not bother with and would rather throw money at to go away. This has been an issue many I know of have had, particularly with DPC latency and bad drivers which causes their built PC to have weird spikes and what sounds like underruns.
I'm a bit of an oddball in that I like doing some small development-like tasks involving music production (like making some very basic VSTs that I would never use in a live setting haha).

Once again, I am not trying to convince you macs are better (because I don't think there's even an answer to that question). Just explaining what my rationale is. For me, money isn't a huge part of the equation but stability is. In other words, I often travel with my Laptop and a Native Instruments controller (NI has a similar philosophy as Apple, especially with Traktor), and averaging 3-4 events a week, I can easily take home $1000s of dollars over the span of a few days. In other words, I don't mind spending more on a system that is reliable and I can trust. Especially because my laptop is the "center" of all of the work I do. Considering that my computers often last as long as most cars, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to spending the same amount of money on a computer as I do the vehicle that I use to get to each gig. And the car analogy is a good one to me; some people like spending a lot of money on a car that they know will work and fit their needs, while others like the idea of saving money and putting in all the right parts to get the performance they want.

I agree with some of your points. However, people seem to ignore the fact that macbooks nowadays are not very well - designed thermally. Also, I've never once had problem with soundcards on any system, any OS. After checking my soundcard with loopback through room eq wizard, I literally had 1 peak that changed something in the low end by like 0.1db, and the same in the high end. All of my sound cards in over 10 PCs have also been at least nearly this good. I guess that horror story about bad sound card iss like my experience with mac: someone got a PC, didn't give it enough of a chance, and then blamed a problem that was almost definitely their fault on the machine because they didn't know beetter, as I have never heard of inaccurate sound cards in my life apart from on rly old machines (warly '00s or earlier).

[keyman_sam]

Here we go...

[Michael L]

...once again, we discover that everyone is happily different

[quincy]

I realised that there was something important missing from my previous post (which was broadly pro Apple/OSX).

I've been considering getting a new machine so I've been watching a lot of Youtube and reading articles from so-called Apple experts etc. One common theme seems to be that there are definitely "good" macs and "bad" macs in terms of the different generations of Apple machines. I think I was lucky in that I happened to buy a Macbook Pro from a "good" era of machines back in 2013. I know several others who have Macbook Pros from that era that are still using them happily. I also know people with recent Macbook Pros who are not at all happy. Probably not coincidence.

There has been a lot of debate in these sorts of topics about components and drivers and whatnot and I guess it boils down to the fact that an Apple machine is just like any other machine in that it's a bunch of components and software that needs to work well together. If you have the good luck to buy a "good" Apple machine then you'll probably have an easier time. Likewise if you're lucky enough (or skilled enough) to buy a "good" PC or build one yourself with components that will work together well and also stick a "good" version of Windows on it then you'll probably be good for many years.

I think we've probably all had some good and/or bad luck with this stuff and that significantly shapes our opinion of the companies involved!

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Deleting this conversation soon, cant be bothered anymore.

You can't delete it! But also consider not closing it.

Just because you started the conversation, the thread doesn't belong to you. It's a community conversation/thread, now.

If you no longer wish to discuss, then just stop reading and posting. No need to stop everyone else from discussing

[Gamma-UT]

Thunderbolt exists on PC too. It's literally just usb type c.

Although you can get Thunderbolt on anything, it’s not “literally just usb type c”. Thunderbolt can carry PCIe and DisplayPort protocols in addition to Type-C USB. There’s a four-fold difference in the peak datarate between PCIe over TB3 and USB-C.

[imrae]

ASIO is literally the exact same thing as core audio, albeit with an unnoticeable amount more lag.

No

Want to explain why or just contradict me without presenting any evidence?

That burden generally lies on the person making an extraordinary claim.

Thunderbolt exists on PC too. It's literally just usb type c.

Hmm, I think there's a pattern here.

[Dafydd Powell]

Deleting this conversation soon, cant be bothered anymore.

You can't delete it! But also consider not closing it.

Just because you started the conversation, the thread doesn't belong to you. It's a community conversation/thread, now.

If you no longer wish to discuss, then just stop reading and posting. No need to stop everyone else from discussing

True.