Open DAW Format?

[paulm12]

I was doing a bit of research into OMF and AAF, but was surprised to see that there hasn't been a big push for sequencers to have a way to send projects between different DAWs. Perhaps I simply don't know about it, but it would be neat if there was a way for DAWs to import and export a type of file similar to what I would consider an "Open DAW File" or .odf. This would contain the following:

• <li> Track names, and the associated plugins if it is a VSTi/AU track
  <li> Associated VST/AU effects on each mixer channel as insert effects, along with the preset
  <li> All MIDI Data for each MIDI track (consolidated to one file that stretches across the timeline)
  <li> All Audio Data for each Audio track (consolidated to one file that stretches across the timeline)

As a result, loading a .odf would restore projects in similar DAWs. There are also a few other things that could be added in the future:

• <li> A way to save/restore certain stock plugin effects across different DAWs, such as Parametric EQs (where the bands are, what the slopes are, what the DB is for each band), Compressors (Threshold in dB, Ratio, makeup Gain etc)
  <li> A way to batch convert projects, and/or extract .fxp files from plugins that support it

[trusampler]

All for a project like this, and would support it with my money.

[danielh02]

+1 for this. And it should gracefully continue if a plugin is missing or some part of the source format is not supported.

It would be just great to have a utility to be able to "view" a project and as much settings/plugins as possible. The other day I was trying to load a Logic project that contained a plugin/preset which I no longer have on my system. It would be great to know what the preset was so I could at least substitute a similar patch.

There was an old SSL application mentioned in the article below that I guess was an early attempt at conversion, but it is no longer supported.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... erent-daws

-Dan

[jclosed]

The big problem is that with an universal format, you also need to restrict all "specialty's" that each DAW has. The problem with that is, that every DAW has it's own range of plugins that are unique or vastly different for that specific DAW. That uniqueness is the whole point why people choose a specific DAW. As an example - Bitwig uses modulators and the grid in a very different way than Ableton uses Max For Live. So - It will be impossible to make those aspects universally interchangeable.

I could sum up other huge differences between DAW's, but I think the picture is clear. If you want to use an universal exchange format, you cannot use the DAW-specific bits that are the main purpose of using different DAW's.

In short - If you want an universal open DAW format, you also need an unversal open DAW. The only way to have a flawless transfer of music between DAW's, is to exchange plain rendered down audio files. Even something simple as equalizer or filter parameters would not work, because each DAW handles those parameters different. You could come close, but never exactly the same (and in some cases it would be hugely different).

Don't get me wrong - I am all for open exchange formats, but in this case it's not as simple as a an text with font and format parameters attached. That works very well in different text and DTP formats, because the fonts and formats are fixed entities. With music and sounds this are not fixed entities at all. The exception would music notation, but subtile things like phase shifting, intonation, distortion and all that kind of stuff that is used to create an unique(ish) sound, simply differs hugely between DAW's and will be difficult, if not impossible, to pass between DAW's in a universal manner.

[lfm]

I think it is a great idea - since neither OMF nor AAF support any midi at all.
I did manage to get midi over from Reaper to Samplitude via EDL format, if setting midi as external file.

But as always, check your competition
https://www.aatranslator.com.au/

StudioOne has a pretty good transfer from Cubase archive format, if saving the tracks as an archive.

But nobody so far support identifying plugins, and I think that is the most difficult part since one never knows how a host save that, if VST probably a certain format, but if AAX or AU something very difficult to crack, I think.

[fese]

Apart from all the technical problems that jclosed listed, it sure isn’t high on the priority list of DAW vendors. Why should it? It is complicated work that in the end makes it just easier for people to switch DAWs, which no vendor can really want.

[Tj Shredder]

I think it would be beneficial if there would be a universal track format as well. It should be simply a container which can hold Audio, Midi, Automation, Expressions and even stuff which is specific to a DAW, when importing that into a different DAW it would be ignored, maybe with an error message. I never understood why DAWs have different track types. It could all be one and the same... Now as Midi 2.0 is released, it would be a good chance to create something that includes Midi 2.0...
Most track formats are already containers. Any stereo file is, all video formats are already etc... They just need to be a bit enhanced...

[jonljacobi]

I would settle for adding MIDI to one of the existing formats. The plugins would be very difficult except in a very rudimentary sense. What if the program doesn’t support the format? What if the system doesn’t have the plugin used?

I was actually hoping MIDI 2.0 files would allow for audio tracks. A golden opportunity wasted. I think. There seems to be an allowance for large data chunks.

[lfm]

I would settle for adding MIDI to one of the existing formats.

Yes, it's all weird how midi is mistreated in never being extended in OMF or AAF.
I'd say that more than 50% of clips in any project in daws since long are midi, yet treated like it doesn't exist.

Overall midi is mistreated in daws - there is a pool of all audio clips, timestamps and everything - for midi - nothing. Never saw a single daw that treated midi clips the same way as audio clips. I had huge problems in some daws to see which order the various midi clips were recorded, which were older etc. In some due to flawed comping system where takes shift places, like in StudioOne.

Some daws has really bad take system so you cannot decide which was done when, not from naming, not from any timestamp(non-existing).

[paulm12]

The big problem is that with an universal format, you also need to restrict all "specialty's" that each DAW has. The problem with that is, that every DAW has it's own range of plugins that are unique or vastly different for that specific DAW. That uniqueness is the whole point why people choose a specific DAW. As an example - Bitwig uses modulators and the grid in a very different way than Ableton uses Max For Live. So - It will be impossible to make those aspects universally interchangeable.

I could sum up other huge differences between DAW's, but I think the picture is clear. If you want to use an universal exchange format, you cannot use the DAW-specific bits that are the main purpose of using different DAW's.

In short - If you want an universal open DAW format, you also need an unversal open DAW. The only way to have a flawless transfer of music between DAW's, is to exchange plain rendered down audio files. Even something simple as equalizer or filter parameters would not work, because each DAW handles those parameters different. You could come close, but never exactly the same (and in some cases it would be hugely different).

Don't get me wrong - I am all for open exchange formats, but in this case it's not as simple as a an text with font and format parameters attached. That works very well in different text and DTP formats, because the fonts and formats are fixed entities. With music and sounds this are not fixed entities at all. The exception would music notation, but subtile things like phase shifting, intonation, distortion and all that kind of stuff that is used to create an unique(ish) sound, simply differs hugely between DAW's and will be difficult, if not impossible, to pass between DAW's in a universal manner.

Yeah and that’s why, in my opinion, any DAW specific devices (like the whole session view in Love, M4L, the Grid, etc) wouldn’t be supported. Even built-in software synthesizers like ES2 would be hard to port unless there was a standard for a 3Osc/2Filter synth that could be loaded across plugins.
Really what I think it would involve would be a .xml import/export that saves all the relevant parameters. For instance, most filter and EQ parameters are represented in Hz, so if a DAW could save a preset that have locations in Hz, then another one could open it and recall the settings. Obviously it wouldn’t be perfect (if we are talking about EQs, some have more bands than others, etc), but the most common parameters could easily be translated.

[paulm12]

Apart from all the technical problems that jclosed listed, it sure isn’t high on the priority list of DAW vendors. Why should it? It is complicated work that in the end makes it just easier for people to switch DAWs, which no vendor can really want.

I don’t think it would necessarily be too hard. I’m not saying DAW Developers should break their back over trying to make it work, but think about how consistent most DAWs are: it would be easy to export a .xml file summarizing the project, talking about each track, whether it’s Audio or MIDI, and the name of the plugin. And if this .xml can be saved, than it can easily be loaded as well. It could also contain a list (in order) of the insert effects, and specific parameters that are associated (if it’s an EQ, it’s a matter of mapping each band to the Frequnecy, Q, and dB boost/cut of each).
And DAW developers could have a good reason to support it, because it also makes it easier for other users to switch *to* their DAW. Unless you really don’t think your DAW is at least as good as the competition.

[danielh02]

Almost similar to .SFZ format - relative paths to exported audio files, and then XML/JSON data structures for everything else (MIDI, automation, etc.). It could get pretty bloated, but the intention would be for exporting/importing, not for actual performance from the open format file itself.

[paulm12]

Almost similar to .SFZ format - relative paths to exported audio files, and then XML/JSON data structures for everything else (MIDI, automation, etc.). It could get pretty bloated, but the intention would be for exporting/importing, not for actual performance from the open format file itself.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.
There would probably have to be a spec that specifies the parameters for a basic compressor, parametric EQ, delay, reverb, phaser, flanger, filter, saturation/distortion, limiter, etc that DAW manufacturers could map their devices to that allow for export/import into .xml or .json. (Any extra or unmapped parameters could just load their default value on the loading end). Luckily for plugins, VST3 and AU have .vstpreset and .aupreset respectively (and .VST allows for .fxp but not always consistently) so even the presets could potentially be saved as reference too.
Things like sidechain & automation could come later, as automation could be evenly sampled points (as some DAWs allow curves and such), or simply the keyframes themselves.
This also means if a synth can’t be found on the importing end, it would be up to the DAW to do the usual things they do about a missing plugin.

One other nice thing about a spec like this is it doesn’t necessarily have to be only for projects. If we had a general spec for a compressor, with threshold and makeup in dB, ratio, attack, release, etc, a plug-in agnostic system like this could allow the same basic settings to persist but the plugin itself changed (for instance, you could swap out a stock compressor for, say, Waves SSLComp, and when it swaps in, it keeps the same basic settings that were on the plugin before).

[danielh02]

There's also AAF format which goes a little deeper than OMF (mostly for audio <-> video):

https://macprovideo.com/article/audio-s ... -your-mind

One could do a proof-of-concept in any DAW(s) that support a scripting/document object model that you could have access to. The MIDI files could be external as well as the audio. Start small to see what you can read from any particular DAW and go from there.

-Dan