KVR Audio

vbfischer · Post by **vbfischer** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:48 pm

Hey All.

I envy most of you guy's(/gals) drum programming skills (who's tracks I've listened to).

I'm horrible at it. And most of the time, my lack of druming skills frustrates me enough to make me quit composing for long periods of time.

Does anyone know of any good resources out there for constructing drum loops? Style really doesn't matter (although I generally prefer more industrial sounding stuff), I just want to get better at composing drums. I try to listen to stuff, and try to dissect it, but sometimes so much is going on, its hard to pick out what alls going on...

TIA

11011011 · Post by **11011011** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:09 pm

To be honest, a lot of folks "cheat" and rip drum loops, then have the software dissect them, then play with em.

If you're doing your own from scratch, just play with it! When you're not at your computer, feel free to fidget and tap your fingers and toes while you let you mind play with rhythmn.

Meantime, go google for tips on making drum patterns. I bet you find some good stuff out there.

Quick basic dance formula (assuming 16 beat):

Code: Select all

BD: x---x---x---x---
SD: ----x-------x---
OH: --x---x---x---x-
CH: -x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Explore and have fun!

blue on blue · Post by **blue on blue** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:39 am

i agree that it can be hard to dissect a beat within a song to figure out what all's going on. one thing i've done that's helped my drum programming (to some extent) is to load up a midi file and study that instead of listening to an audio file. also, if you can get ahold of some drum sheet music (check drumming magazines, they usually have lessons), program beats based on those. i picked up a few good tips from some old issues of Modern Drummer. also, there's a great freebie VST effect that will liven up even the most basic of beats. it's called SupaTrigga, look it up here on KVR.

josh
http://www.soundclick.com/esebeday

Skaven83 · Post by **Skaven83** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:44 am

If you hear a cool but complex drum sequence in electronic music, it's probably not made with "3 drum samples and a mouse click". Often peoplel have used other methods, like sampling a drum loop and reconstructed it. One way is to use audio quantization. Many times people play drums on an electronic drum kit (like roland or yamaha) and then change the sounds or apply effects.

These are just some ways I do it, but mostly I just chop a drum sequence and mangle it around, maby adding a second loop on top of it.

I still create loops from scratch, but it's very hard to create a convincing "real drums" sequence with a mouse. I think it's great that BFD have added ready grooves, because some people just want to record a "real band" but don't have a drummer or drums. Some people think it's cheating to have ready grooves, but hey, it's almost impossible to do that without a real drummer.

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:56 am

I like to layer loops to form nice composite beats. This might involves using my own loops, or other peoples.. whatever. Chop them up in the sequencer, rearrange them and fit them to the tempo.

I really like Samples CD's like Metamorphosis, Breaks from the Nu skool, Skip to my Loop... etc for this.

And dont worry about using premade loops in this context. No one will recognise them once you've gone to work.

Another idea might be to get some construction kit sample CD's so that you can see each of the parts seperately. This helps a lot to see how other people make beats. Noisebox is great for this.

11011011 · Post by **11011011** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:15 pm

One trick I do is, I make a normal (boring) pattern in a 909-ish beat box, then I run it through a decimator of some type (I now use one I made in SynthEdit with a comb filter and an envelope filter) for "texture". This gives a nice energetic background for the primary beat tracks which I layer on top.

Also, seriously try mixing things up. Try different types of beats on top of each other.

The big thing to remember if you're doing this with a mouse is, it's HARD. If it's a complicated beat, you're better off loading up (or making) a drum-sample soundfont and tapping out the beat on your midi controller. Sometimes a mouse just can't do it.

Jaidy · Post by **Jaidy** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:54 pm

In the same boat as you, have searched the web for drum theory, but what I have found has been too academic and useless in practice.

I have found Drum Tablature to be a great learning tool. It is a very visual way to get a handle on drumming. There is not much there for electronic music, but, once you really dissect a few really good rock or jazz tunes by great drummers like John Bonham of Led Zepp or Kieth Moon of the Who, or Ginger Baker of Cream, you should get some great ideas. While there are some retail programs out there to convert Drum Tabs to midi, I just use them as a guide/template to recreate them in FL Studio.

A drum tab site I really like is mxtabs.net

As the King of Pop, MJ says, bEAT iT!

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:49 pm

rhythm is just like anything else.. break it into bite-size. the more ways you can understand/define the roles of each sound, rhythmic interval, the more handles you have. hypothesise, test.. eg.

hats, kicks, snares.. things you wear on your head, an impulse, a catch.. a ridiculous legend but one you can build stories on :p then go from those stories.

playing a hand drum is an excellent way of developing a fundamental vocab of 'phrases,' eg. my understanding of arabic notation is that rhythms are built out of small chunks, like (rim, rest, slap.. say kick, rest, snare) that are then concatenated.

eg. there's some aphex twin bit used in the milkman flash at fat-pie.com.. the kick is on 16ths like X/// ///X //// //X/ or something.. the beat in the middle is hanging out there in 16ths land, sounds very un-funky, but it works by 'attesting to the strict 16ths resolution' - so here the kick is making a distinct, "high resolution" statement..

:p

yeah, "i meant in english please"

vbfischer · Post by **vbfischer** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:54 pm

All...

Thanks for the suggestions, tips, etc. I've renewed my desire to improve my drum programming.

One thing I tried this past weekend, was loading up my Reaktor 4.0, and trying out some of the sequenced drum machine stuff. Mostly, non-traditional ones like sinbeats, DSQ-32, etc.. Then slicing, dicing, etc.

vbfischer · Post by **vbfischer** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:56 pm

Oh, I should mention, I try to construct loops several ways, sometimes using a mouse... But usually, I start with recording live on my Alesis, then editing with the mouse... I used to have a PAD80, but my wife made me sell it, as even playing it with headphones on woke the kids...

Bunnyboy · Post by **Bunnyboy** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:17 pm

I love programming drum loops. Absolutly love it. I love laying down a beat and then creating variations of it.

However, it took me ages to learn even the basics. My intital forays into making loops were tinny, boring, and, well, unmusical.

I read a lot of issues of CM, and spent a long time pouring over drum maps to see how the beats I was hearing in my head could make it into the real world.

What I have realised is that, unless you are doing Autechre beats, many drum loops are quite simple - it is the sounds that make them appear complex. Also, a 16-beat bar is too rigid: pushing and pulling the beats around makes a far more interesting loop.
Also, compression, EQ, delay, reverb count for a lot in the finished sound.
loop chopping tools are great, and help me a lot in the contruction. Anything that makes it easier to create loops means that the creative juices can flow longer and over more interesting arrangements.

Well, thats my view

11011011 · Post by **11011011** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:08 am

One thing you can do if you're a mouser is, yes, break out of that damn 16 beat grid. Go 32 and you'll almost instantly sound more interesting. Just something simple like throwing in an extra BD beat at #30 makes it more "yeah" sounding.

Remember with a beat, you're making the interface with your listener at that level. So the framework needs to be a little organic, or mysterious anti-bodies in the inner ear will reject it.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:46 am

Hi there,

You said "style" doesn't matter. Well, I do actually think that style DOES matter.
For something industrial you might eventually better be off with some drum loop CDs and proper slicing and/or rearranging tools. But then, I don't really have an idea about what "industrial" means.

However, if you're into programming your own bits, I can only recommend trying to play them somewhat "live".
What I often do is to program/record a basic hihat pattern, such as: |x-o-x-x x-x-x-x| ("o" being an opened hat, just to make it a little less stiff).
After that I might fool around with different kick/snare combinations.
For a start it's no bad idea to use the most basic combination, which would be a kick on beat 1+3, a snare on beat 2+4.
Then try to alter the kick a bit (doublestrokes in 8ths or 16ths, before or after the main kicks), eventually completely leaving out 1+3.
You may also want to start fooling with the snare.
A very nice method for me seems to be to just brush/record in (or whatever you're up to) some offbeat 16th notes (between the hat 8ths that is) and set them to a VERY low level. Those "ghost" notes often give a way more lively feel to a drumtrack. Try deleting some or alter velocities.

Btw, the mxtabs.net site PawPawPatch posted seems to be quite a nice one from what I can see so far.

No matter how you start, I allways think it's a good idea trying to actually play things (at least kick/snare), just to get you into the feel of a certain groove. Try it against a bassline or even a complete idea and it should become pretty much a natural thing, assuming you got a bit of rhythmic sense.

Btw, instead of using above mentioned hat pattern to jam along with it might be feeling way more comfortable to check out things along with some percussion loop, preferably played by a real percussionist - conga/bongo loops do a nice job, no matter whether you'll be using them in the end. They're not catching too much interest but allready giving you a nice grid to jam along to.

dusted william · Post by **dusted william** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:19 am

it is the sounds that make them appear complex

I agree %100

The sounds mean so much in a beat.

-dw

danielmm · Post by **danielmm** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:06 am

I agree with most of what has been said...however if you are learning I still think the best way is to try and emulate your favorite artists. This will get you to where you want to be in a hurry.

-I do this by laying down an audio track of a song I like in my host.

-I then call up a drum synth or whatever you have for drum sounds.

-Get the tempo right in the host. (tap tempo works best as the audio track is playing to find tempo)

-Then keep looping parts of the audio until you get the midi down to match on your drum track.

You quickly see what some of the tricks are as they are all layed out in front of you on your midi track. You can tweak and change as you see fit from there.

dano

Drum Loop Construction