Deepmind 12 Oscillators
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2421 posts since 28 Mar, 2007
I am deciding whether to buy a Deepmind 12 which states in the features list "two oscillators and LFOs".
Could anyone who knows tell me if these are two proper oscillators or is there some sort of sharing going on ?
The features list says this........
["OSC 1 generates sawtooth and square/pulse waveforms with pulse width modulation
OSC 2 generates square/pulse waveforms with tone modulation"]
It does not seem to say that osc2 has a sawtooth waveform ?
And if anyone owns one of these machines does it really matter if in the end it sounds good ?
Could anyone who knows tell me if these are two proper oscillators or is there some sort of sharing going on ?
The features list says this........
["OSC 1 generates sawtooth and square/pulse waveforms with pulse width modulation
OSC 2 generates square/pulse waveforms with tone modulation"]
It does not seem to say that osc2 has a sawtooth waveform ?
And if anyone owns one of these machines does it really matter if in the end it sounds good ?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2421 posts since 28 Mar, 2007
Thanks for confirming that.
I have now googled and it seems that there may be workarounds,but it seems odd that Behringer only allowed a sawtooth wave on the first oscillator.
I have found a huge Gearslutz thread on the DeepMind so I will have to wade through that and see if it matters that much in practice.
- KVRAF
- 15008 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
It’s inspired by a synth with one oscillator, so think of the second as a bonus. Is it limited? Yes. Is the synth limited? No. I’m not sure there is another analog on the market that’s as full featured until you get to the Prophet REV2.dellboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:05 pmThanks for confirming that.
I have now googled and it seems that there may be workarounds,but it seems odd that Behringer only allowed a sawtooth wave on the first oscillator.
I have found a huge Gearslutz thread on the DeepMind so I will have to wade through that and see if it matters that much in practice.
Which is what I did. The Deepmind is a great value, but to someone like me who has an easier time making money then studio space, I just felt it didn’t sound exciting enough. I feel the 08 is just a better synth in every way and I can put my own effects on it.
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
- KVRAF
- 15008 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
The work around isn’t really a work around because you lose half your voice count and it still doesn’t sound like two oscillators with a defunded sawtooth going through a filter.dellboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:05 pmThanks for confirming that.
I have now googled and it seems that there may be workarounds,but it seems odd that Behringer only allowed a sawtooth wave on the first oscillator.
I have found a huge Gearslutz thread on the DeepMind so I will have to wade through that and see if it matters that much in practice.
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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AdvancedFollower AdvancedFollower https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418780
- KVRian
- 1235 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden
There are a couple of ways to get two Sawtooth oscillators.
If you just want a detuned Sawtooth type sound, you can enable 2X Unison and simply use the Unison Detune slider. This cuts the voice count in half, but it's still 6 voices, same as the Juno-106, Prophet 6 etc.
You can also target the Sawtooth from just one of the Unison voices in the Mod Matrix, if you want to detune the second voice in intervals or octaves.
Or you can use the pitch shifter in the effects section. This retains the full 12-voices but doesn't sound as good since it's just a digital effect.
Of course you can also create very varied sounds within the limitations of the oscillators, especially if you're not a "purist" and you make use of the inbuilt effects. The second oscillator can create some interesting sounds using the Tone Mod, and you also have access to both the Saw and Pulse/PWM on the first oscillator at the same time.
If you just want a detuned Sawtooth type sound, you can enable 2X Unison and simply use the Unison Detune slider. This cuts the voice count in half, but it's still 6 voices, same as the Juno-106, Prophet 6 etc.
You can also target the Sawtooth from just one of the Unison voices in the Mod Matrix, if you want to detune the second voice in intervals or octaves.
Or you can use the pitch shifter in the effects section. This retains the full 12-voices but doesn't sound as good since it's just a digital effect.
Of course you can also create very varied sounds within the limitations of the oscillators, especially if you're not a "purist" and you make use of the inbuilt effects. The second oscillator can create some interesting sounds using the Tone Mod, and you also have access to both the Saw and Pulse/PWM on the first oscillator at the same time.
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- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
I never played with a DM12. It do seem odd that both oscillators could not do SAW wave.
If DM12 can patch a chorus effect between oscillator and filter then it could be very similar to chorusing multi-saws. If DM12 can only patch a chorus effect after the filter and amp, then it could fatten it up but not be quite so equivalent an effect.
For fat "detuned unison" sounds you don't necessarily need dual (or more) same-shape SAW (or other shapes). There are probably webpages with pictures of mixed geometric waves but am too lazy to look it up. Or you can see it in oscilloscope or computer program equivalent. Or draw it out with pencil and graph paper.
Suffice it to say that a detuned square or pulse added (or subtracted) from a SAW doesn't look exactly identical to a pair of equal-amplitude mixed SAWs, but there are SIMILARITIES in appearance and sound. In fact one of the earliest methods of analog fat supersaw, described in some early Electronotes newsletter articles, involved duplicate-mixing one SAW with several square-LFO shifted copies, all the LFOs running at different frequencies. Causing the summed waveform to have multiple "wandering saw peaks" and a supersaw sound with just a single saw oscillator and a bunch of different-DC-level-shifted copies mixed together.
Pure square has only odd-order harmonics but pulse has both even and odd harmonics, as does the SAW. I can't guarantee the accuracy of the following links without further research but sounds about right--
https://pages.uoregon.edu/emi/14.php
https://pages.uoregon.edu/emi/12.php
So you can't find a Pulse duty cycle exactly the same timbre as a SAW (because the Pulse wave will have some holes in its harmonic series according to duty cycle), but you can adjust by ear to get a Pulse that might harmonically match the SAW fairly good depending on the patch you are looking for. Summing that Pulse slightly detuned against the SAW will fatten up not too different from dual-detuned SAWs. In fact it might be better because having similar-but-different sounding oscillators might not have as deep an amplitude cancellation in the "valley" portion of the beat cycle, because the different-shaped waves can't ever completely cancel each other out like an equal mix of two identical-shape detuned oscillators can.
Another way of looking at it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_wave
I don't know if the DM12 oscillator mixer has negative gain settings but it doesn't really matter that much mixing a pair of detuned oscillators, one a SAW and the other a PULSE. They are rolling againgst each other over time, and for example ADDING a 10 percent PULSE might be the same as SUBTRACTING a 90 percent PULSE. Just saying for carefully chosen PULSE duty cycle it might sound about the same (or better) as mixing two identical SAWs. Or maybe not. Just speaking "in general" because I never used a DM12.
In the past when looking for "FAT" with other synths, have got fatter by combining at least slightly different waveforms.
If DM12 can patch a chorus effect between oscillator and filter then it could be very similar to chorusing multi-saws. If DM12 can only patch a chorus effect after the filter and amp, then it could fatten it up but not be quite so equivalent an effect.
For fat "detuned unison" sounds you don't necessarily need dual (or more) same-shape SAW (or other shapes). There are probably webpages with pictures of mixed geometric waves but am too lazy to look it up. Or you can see it in oscilloscope or computer program equivalent. Or draw it out with pencil and graph paper.
Suffice it to say that a detuned square or pulse added (or subtracted) from a SAW doesn't look exactly identical to a pair of equal-amplitude mixed SAWs, but there are SIMILARITIES in appearance and sound. In fact one of the earliest methods of analog fat supersaw, described in some early Electronotes newsletter articles, involved duplicate-mixing one SAW with several square-LFO shifted copies, all the LFOs running at different frequencies. Causing the summed waveform to have multiple "wandering saw peaks" and a supersaw sound with just a single saw oscillator and a bunch of different-DC-level-shifted copies mixed together.
Pure square has only odd-order harmonics but pulse has both even and odd harmonics, as does the SAW. I can't guarantee the accuracy of the following links without further research but sounds about right--
https://pages.uoregon.edu/emi/14.php
https://pages.uoregon.edu/emi/12.php
So you can't find a Pulse duty cycle exactly the same timbre as a SAW (because the Pulse wave will have some holes in its harmonic series according to duty cycle), but you can adjust by ear to get a Pulse that might harmonically match the SAW fairly good depending on the patch you are looking for. Summing that Pulse slightly detuned against the SAW will fatten up not too different from dual-detuned SAWs. In fact it might be better because having similar-but-different sounding oscillators might not have as deep an amplitude cancellation in the "valley" portion of the beat cycle, because the different-shaped waves can't ever completely cancel each other out like an equal mix of two identical-shape detuned oscillators can.
Another way of looking at it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_wave
OK, if PULSE = SAW1 - SAW2, then algebraically we can also say that SAW2 = SAW1 - PULSE.A pulse wave can be created by subtracting a sawtooth wave from a phase-shifted version of itself.
I don't know if the DM12 oscillator mixer has negative gain settings but it doesn't really matter that much mixing a pair of detuned oscillators, one a SAW and the other a PULSE. They are rolling againgst each other over time, and for example ADDING a 10 percent PULSE might be the same as SUBTRACTING a 90 percent PULSE. Just saying for carefully chosen PULSE duty cycle it might sound about the same (or better) as mixing two identical SAWs. Or maybe not. Just speaking "in general" because I never used a DM12.
In the past when looking for "FAT" with other synths, have got fatter by combining at least slightly different waveforms.
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david.beholder david.beholder https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=159839
- KVRAF
- 1866 posts since 13 Sep, 2007
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AdvancedFollower AdvancedFollower https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418780
- KVRian
- 1235 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden
Yep, it's basically the Sub from the Juno, but Behringer (Midas) found that it didn't take that much extra circuitry to decouple it from main oscillator so you can tune it independently. However it still doesn't have all the hardware components of a full oscillator, which is why it's quite limited.david.beholder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:20 pmNow it isn't. It's mimicking Juno with another counter added to Sub and that's it. Not first synth with it.
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- KVRAF
- 35450 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Yes, but, it's a odd design choice anyway.david.beholder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:20 pmNow it isn't. It's mimicking Juno with another counter added to Sub and that's it. Not first synth with it.
- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yeah I call it a 1.5 oscillator synth. Either way you can stack voices so it's not a huge problem if you want to detune some saws, but yeah it will reduce polyphony.
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- KVRAF
- 6427 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
Some kind of obsession with faders is another one. They could have fitted knobs to at least have separate available on panel for envelopes. Each fader hold the same space as 2 knobs pretty much. Maybe 3 even, but a bit tight maybe.
I often fine tune filter and amp attack and decay to get the sound I want.
Now it's through display back and forth which is cumbersome in comparison.
But very well thought out other than this, I think, especially at this pricepoint.
Not that common to have curves as well on envelopes, how attack, decay and release transfer.
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- KVRAF
- 35450 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
That's the problem.EvilDragon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:49 am Yeah I call it a 1.5 oscillator synth. Either way you can stack voices so it's not a huge problem if you want to detune some saws, but yeah it will reduce polyphony.
- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Sure I guess that's why they put twice the voices that Juno had in
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david.beholder david.beholder https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=159839
- KVRAF
- 1866 posts since 13 Sep, 2007
Well there is no such thing as "full oscillator", it's DCO but instead of saw/tri shaper they've added wavefolder.AdvancedFollower wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:37 am Yep, it's basically the Sub from the Juno, but Behringer (Midas) found that it didn't take that much extra circuitry to decouple it from main oscillator so you can tune it independently. However it still doesn't have all the hardware components of a full oscillator, which is why it's quite limited.
Murderous duck!