Getting DI guitars to sit well in the mix
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- KVRist
- 37 posts since 25 Jun, 2020
Hey everyone, I'm working on a metal track with 2 guitarists who recorded directly into their interface. The mix is a struggle here, very dense, a lot of things going at the same time and the di guitars just sounded horrible. Since I'm very new to mixing such dense genres, I followed this article: https://www.waves.com/tips-for-recordin ... di-guitars which got me halfway through but its still so god damn muddy I can't seem to get around it. I already cut so much out of the guitars (dynamic eqs and mb comps) but it all eats away at the tone and doesn't get me the results I wanted. What would you do in this situation? How do you like to reamp di guitars? What do you do so that they won't be so muddy in a mix that also includes a whole band (bass, drums, vocals, synths)?
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- KVRAF
- 2065 posts since 14 Sep, 2004 from $HOME
I admit that I am by no means a specialist in metal mixing, but from the top of my head my approach would be, assuming you have two tracks of guitar:
- use less distortion in re-amping than you might think. Too much distortion and you lose definition
- pan the two tracks left and right
- add a low cut so they don’t clash with the bass and bass drum (frequency around 80-100 Hz, but use your ears)
- to reduce muddiness I’d try cutting a bit of around 300Hz. Further cuts might be necessary but depend on the signal.
- add clarity by boosting at 5-7k, maybe a hi shelf. You’d be surprised by how much you can sometimes boost guitars in the hi mids/hi end. It adds presence.
Depending on the signal the frequencies might change, of course. Hard to say without hearing the tracks.
- use less distortion in re-amping than you might think. Too much distortion and you lose definition
- pan the two tracks left and right
- add a low cut so they don’t clash with the bass and bass drum (frequency around 80-100 Hz, but use your ears)
- to reduce muddiness I’d try cutting a bit of around 300Hz. Further cuts might be necessary but depend on the signal.
- add clarity by boosting at 5-7k, maybe a hi shelf. You’d be surprised by how much you can sometimes boost guitars in the hi mids/hi end. It adds presence.
Depending on the signal the frequencies might change, of course. Hard to say without hearing the tracks.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 37 posts since 25 Jun, 2020
They gave me a clean guitar, recorded straight into their audio interface.imrae wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:53 am When you say DI... what did they give you?
Dry signal direct from guitars? Direct output from a preamp? Output from a plugin?
How do they sound live?
I tried various ways to make it sound better but I only have access to plugins currently (don't have kemper or an actual amp). I used prs supermodels for this purpose (archon) with a decent amount of gain but not too much. It sounds great with just one of the guitars but as soon as I add this second one everything goes to hell. They sound great live, it's just that I can't get all the instruments to come out in the mix.
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- KVRAF
- 2719 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
Right. With clean DI guitars I'd insert an amp plugin with flat EQ controls and appropriate gain, then spend most of the time/effort playing with the cabinet section. Different IRs can vary hugely in how bright/dark they are and what resonance they add to the midrange. So for me the priority order for fixing frequency balance goes something like
guitar/pickup selection > overdrive > cabinet > amp selection > amp EQ > post EQ
Note that this loosely flows from things that are hard to change to things that are more versatile. With the semi-exception that, for mixing purposes, the cabinet can matter more than the preamp! And multiband compression / dynamic EQ isn't on the list: that's a tool for touching up something that's already pretty good but has consistency issues.
It sounds like you're having trouble with a build-up in low mids, so I'd start by using brighter IRs that don't have much low-end/mid resonance. (i.e. not an oversized Dual Rec cabinet!) Then use the amp EQ to tune the low end. Think about how the guitars and bass fit together in the frequency spectrum.
You also didn't mention overdrive pedals at all. It's very common to use high-gain amps with a tubescreamer-like overdrive set as a nearly-clean boost that cuts low-end. This can clean up the guitar tone in a way you'll never achieve with cabinet/EQ work that follows the pre-amp. A little bit goes a long way; I don't have Archon but try using the boost/shape section for this?
guitar/pickup selection > overdrive > cabinet > amp selection > amp EQ > post EQ
Note that this loosely flows from things that are hard to change to things that are more versatile. With the semi-exception that, for mixing purposes, the cabinet can matter more than the preamp! And multiband compression / dynamic EQ isn't on the list: that's a tool for touching up something that's already pretty good but has consistency issues.
It sounds like you're having trouble with a build-up in low mids, so I'd start by using brighter IRs that don't have much low-end/mid resonance. (i.e. not an oversized Dual Rec cabinet!) Then use the amp EQ to tune the low end. Think about how the guitars and bass fit together in the frequency spectrum.
You also didn't mention overdrive pedals at all. It's very common to use high-gain amps with a tubescreamer-like overdrive set as a nearly-clean boost that cuts low-end. This can clean up the guitar tone in a way you'll never achieve with cabinet/EQ work that follows the pre-amp. A little bit goes a long way; I don't have Archon but try using the boost/shape section for this?
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- KVRAF
- 43892 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from clown world
Again, if you knew what bands the client was listening to it would take away some of the guesswork.
Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
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- addled muppet weed
- 111237 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
theyve given you clean, dry guitars?
no pedals? nothing?
then said "make us sound metal"?
do they not have a sound they use live?
guitarists giving up control of their own sound design seems weird to me if im honest. a guitarists tone, is well, something personal.
how have you got the gig? are they friends, or is this business?
if the latter, id not take material i wasnt ready for, yes, its great getting a bigger portfolio, experience in more genres, but putting out sub par stuff is going to hurt in the long term.
stick to material you are comfortable with, want to expand the business? find someone else who is willing to be paid half of what youre getting, then youre getting half for nowt
if its friends, as aloysious says, get some reference material, get a recording of their rehearsal or a gig.
you need to know more about their intent.
no pedals? nothing?
then said "make us sound metal"?
do they not have a sound they use live?
guitarists giving up control of their own sound design seems weird to me if im honest. a guitarists tone, is well, something personal.
how have you got the gig? are they friends, or is this business?
if the latter, id not take material i wasnt ready for, yes, its great getting a bigger portfolio, experience in more genres, but putting out sub par stuff is going to hurt in the long term.
stick to material you are comfortable with, want to expand the business? find someone else who is willing to be paid half of what youre getting, then youre getting half for nowt
if its friends, as aloysious says, get some reference material, get a recording of their rehearsal or a gig.
you need to know more about their intent.
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- KVRAF
- 4720 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
That's quite odd that they gave you straight in, dry/clean guitar tracks. Weren't they using any kind of amp sim at their end? Why couldn't they just send you a version with their amp sims turned on? They must have gotten the impression that you'd take care of that? If that's the case then there's some good advice above, and I would also use different amp/cab sims for each guitar.