Why you left Bitwig?

[Biscotto]

So that’s why you left Ableton?
No enough here because here we are focusing on the facts of why we left BWS.
All those positive points you are listing are insufficient to keep many users from leaving BWS and this is the point of this topic.
We are voicing the reasons we left BWS based on the topic intention.
You felt like proving that the topic, and the listed reasons from several users, is in some way unjustified or not fair based on your experience with the software.

I can easily agree with your claims but it would be better placed in a topic titled “Why I stick with BWG”.

We are trying to give an honest account of the reasons why we leaving BWS and I think that Ableton, in my case it’s way superior in workflow for my needs and ahead of the game which IS the reason I’m leaving.

You seems to forget the topic intention and a defense lawyer is not required.
I’m freely leaving the platform with no collateral damage to your client.

If there was a topic “Why I left Ableton” I would have no business being there because I use Ableton. Just saying....

You mention reasons for leaving, none of them are valid IMO. This is KVR, I'm certain you're aware that no topic is off limits in terms of sticking to the subject.

Reasons to stick to Live are really not mentioned by you, and a lot of your reasons for leaving Bitwig are unfamiliarity and assumptions that are actually played out in real life with Live, like the fact that M4L's introduction has significantly slowed down Live itself's development process.

I could name a dozen reasons to stick to Live, none of them would do with the UX or the addition of the Grid in Bitwig, it would be things like movie hosting, the mentioned global nature of the LFO, Jitter in M4L, the actual GUI ( I like the streamlined look ), etc. But when it comes to UX, Bitwig wins that battle, the browser, key commands, navigating the interface, window sets, MIDI editing etc.

Anyway if Live makes you happy, great, but I still think that from what you wrote, it's more like you never really got over that interface shock that anyone has when using a new DAW, after being completely immersed in a particular DAWs way of doing things.

No shock, I've used DAWs from (Digital) Performer in the 80's to other 10 other including Logic.
I'm aware this is KVR and I love it! I was also in your place no long ago.
I produce more again and that's the hard fact. That is actually shocking you

[pdxindy]

Just to clarify and help to understand in advance:
The modulations in BWS are not Global and work in a hierarchy fashion but also in a more elegant and practical way than Ableton where the modulations are Global and work in any direction you desire and across the whole DAW.

Modulat is a paid m4l system that is extremely powerful with more powerful LFOs and MSEG type stuff etc.

Still, BWS encourages your modulation madness with a super and clever implementation and, for the “built in instruments”, superior even to Modulat when it comes to polyphony.

The usual suspects will chime in and explain in deeper details.

Ok. Time to go to sleep.

Thanks to all who helped explain the modulation differences in more detail. Very interesting.

I will look into M4L Modulat...looks cool.

Choosing Bitwig or Live in regard to modulation stuff, I guess it´s a workflow thing.

I´m off to do more research!

Modulation in Live is very capable... but not so good workflow

For example, modulate a parameter and then you cannot tweak the parameter itself any more. Bitwig you can.

In a Bitwig device or VST, add say 3 modulators and modulate a bunch of parameters. Now select the device and in the inspector you will see all the modulators and be able to edit all the target depths in one place. In Live there is no overview like that to see what is going on and edit target depths.

And when it comes to Bitwig instruments, modulators can be per voice. This is huge. In Live Modulators are mono only affecting all voices at once, not per voice.

Then there are the Bitwig selector devices, per voice modulation of the arpeggiator and Bitwig has the voice stacking built into every instrument and the voice stacking modulator. And of course MPE. Everything is integrated in the core of the app so all functions work together. Bitwig has full midi channel support too.

Finally, if you like to use say Polysynth with 2 extra envelopes, add 2 envelope modulators to Polysynth and save that as the default so anytime you add a Polysynth the extra modulators will be there.

[pdxindy]

TBH I would be surprised if Bitwig survives another 5 yrs, their "non-sub" payment plan is not a solid foundation to run a business on. Revenue in that model is too variable and uncertain.

Why you think that? The whole reason behind the "upgrade plan" model was to spread people's payments over time and not concentrate them around big x.0 updates like for other DAWs. This helps a small team to have a pretty consistent cash flow and encourages them to push out meaningful, frequent updates more often, instead of "saving" new features for 0.x. Obviously it's highly subjective whether they've been able to keep their end of the bargain on the latter, but that's gonna be the case always and for every software, because you can't make everyone happy all the time.

I dunno, I just think it's pretty easy to skip versions, in which case the Bitwig crew
doesn't get paid. A lot of it is psychological in that people think they are saving
some money by only waiting for features they personally find valuable. If a lot
of customers do that and I bet there are quite a few (like me), that's a significant
amount of lost revenue. In the least, it's unreliable revenue, which can make budgeting
very difficult. They are a small crew, so maybe it will work out long term, still that's
a lot of risk in financial terms.

BTW: I think they very much do hold out on features to encourage renewals, despite
what they say about it. *shrug

I often skipped versions of photoshop and other apps. People do that regardless of pricing model.

And it makes no sense for the Devs to hold back features. That would do the opposite of encouraging renewals. Renewals are spread throughout the year so withholding features would only delay renewals.

[Ian Mackie]

And then when Ableton 10.5 comes out (in 2020?) with a load of updates we can discuss all this again!

And then again when Bitwig 3.5 comes out...Cubase 11 is out in November...

DAW wars never end !!

[Biscotto]

And then when Ableton 10.5 comes out (in 2020?) with a load of updates we can discuss all this again!

And then again when Bitwig 3.5 comes out...Cubase 11 is out in November...

DAW wars never end !!

It's more of a "Users War" jumping in to desperately defend "Their Baby" as soon someone from anywhere on the planet says something "Inappropriate" to their "Current and Transitory DAW" of choice ATM.

It's fun though, the outspring of the Reaper's Gang of Eight (Have you tried Bitwig?)

[Passing Bye]

Same thread, different DAW
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=538874

[Biscotto]

Same thread, different DAW
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=538874

Similar thread, different despair!
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=538921

[machinesworking]

So that’s why you left Ableton?
No enough here because here we are focusing on the facts of why we left BWS.
All those positive points you are listing are insufficient to keep many users from leaving BWS and this is the point of this topic.
We are voicing the reasons we left BWS based on the topic intention.
You felt like proving that the topic, and the listed reasons from several users, is in some way unjustified or not fair based on your experience with the software.

I can easily agree with your claims but it would be better placed in a topic titled “Why I stick with BWG”.

We are trying to give an honest account of the reasons why we leaving BWS and I think that Ableton, in my case it’s way superior in workflow for my needs and ahead of the game which IS the reason I’m leaving.

You seems to forget the topic intention and a defense lawyer is not required.
I’m freely leaving the platform with no collateral damage to your client.

If there was a topic “Why I left Ableton” I would have no business being there because I use Ableton. Just saying....

You mention reasons for leaving, none of them are valid IMO. This is KVR, I'm certain you're aware that no topic is off limits in terms of sticking to the subject.

Reasons to stick to Live are really not mentioned by you, and a lot of your reasons for leaving Bitwig are unfamiliarity and assumptions that are actually played out in real life with Live, like the fact that M4L's introduction has significantly slowed down Live itself's development process.

I could name a dozen reasons to stick to Live, none of them would do with the UX or the addition of the Grid in Bitwig, it would be things like movie hosting, the mentioned global nature of the LFO, Jitter in M4L, the actual GUI ( I like the streamlined look ), etc. But when it comes to UX, Bitwig wins that battle, the browser, key commands, navigating the interface, window sets, MIDI editing etc.

Anyway if Live makes you happy, great, but I still think that from what you wrote, it's more like you never really got over that interface shock that anyone has when using a new DAW, after being completely immersed in a particular DAWs way of doing things.

No shock, I've used DAWs from (Digital) Performer in the 80's to other 10 other including Logic.
I'm aware this is KVR and I love it! I was also in your place no long ago.
I produce more again and that's the hard fact. That is actually shocking you

I have no issue with you switching DAWs. I currently own 5+ four more if you count ReNoise, MPC 2, Maschine, and Reason. This is directly the result of me getting bored or upset at the progress in a particular DAW, or wanting a new way of working. I'm not even 100% in with Bitwig, I love DP, and am working towards using Logic again, because screw it, Apple can afford to give Logic all the features I want, and they do.

I just don't get your "reasons", that's all. Again, I've been using Live since V3, and the truth is development slowed to a crawl predictably when they integrated M4L. The changes and improvements from v3 to 8 were drastic and meaningful, from 8.1 to 10, not so much. I just find it paradoxical that you say this is why you left Bitwig to go back to Live, because the Grid will slow down development of other parts of Bitwig?? Pot calling the kettle black etc.

[Biscotto]

So that’s why you left Ableton?
No enough here because here we are focusing on the facts of why we left BWS.
All those positive points you are listing are insufficient to keep many users from leaving BWS and this is the point of this topic.
We are voicing the reasons we left BWS based on the topic intention.
You felt like proving that the topic, and the listed reasons from several users, is in some way unjustified or not fair based on your experience with the software.

I can easily agree with your claims but it would be better placed in a topic titled “Why I stick with BWG”.

We are trying to give an honest account of the reasons why we leaving BWS and I think that Ableton, in my case it’s way superior in workflow for my needs and ahead of the game which IS the reason I’m leaving.

You seems to forget the topic intention and a defense lawyer is not required.
I’m freely leaving the platform with no collateral damage to your client.

If there was a topic “Why I left Ableton” I would have no business being there because I use Ableton. Just saying....

You mention reasons for leaving, none of them are valid IMO. This is KVR, I'm certain you're aware that no topic is off limits in terms of sticking to the subject.

Reasons to stick to Live are really not mentioned by you, and a lot of your reasons for leaving Bitwig are unfamiliarity and assumptions that are actually played out in real life with Live, like the fact that M4L's introduction has significantly slowed down Live itself's development process.

I could name a dozen reasons to stick to Live, none of them would do with the UX or the addition of the Grid in Bitwig, it would be things like movie hosting, the mentioned global nature of the LFO, Jitter in M4L, the actual GUI ( I like the streamlined look ), etc. But when it comes to UX, Bitwig wins that battle, the browser, key commands, navigating the interface, window sets, MIDI editing etc.

Anyway if Live makes you happy, great, but I still think that from what you wrote, it's more like you never really got over that interface shock that anyone has when using a new DAW, after being completely immersed in a particular DAWs way of doing things.

No shock, I've used DAWs from (Digital) Performer in the 80's to other 10 other including Logic.
I'm aware this is KVR and I love it! I was also in your place no long ago.
I produce more again and that's the hard fact. That is actually shocking you

I have no issue with you switching DAWs. I currently own 5+ four more if you count ReNoise, MPC 2, Maschine, and Reason. This is directly the result of me getting bored or upset at the progress in a particular DAW, or wanting a new way of working. I'm not even 100% in with Bitwig, I love DP, and am working towards using Logic again, because screw it, Apple can afford to give Logic all the features I want, and they do.

I just don't get your "reasons", that's all. Again, I've been using Live since V3, and the truth is development slowed to a crawl predictably when they integrated M4L. The changes and improvements from v3 to 8 were drastic and meaningful, from 8.1 to 10, not so much. I just find it paradoxical that you say this is why you left Bitwig to go back to Live, because the Grid will slow down development of other parts of Bitwig?? Pot calling the kettle black etc.

I didn’t go back to Ableton because of the Grid, how do you get to that I have no idea. The Grid is something I find to be a waste of time because of how I make music.
I left BWS because according to me Ableton workflow is superior and m4l has tools that are astonishing usable.
All in all you should at a minimum understand that I prefer Ableton workflow over anything that BWS has to offer ATM.
You are not in my shoes of course, but out of respect for my creativity and honoring my needs I choose whatever tool does the job.
No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

I know Ableton development it’s slow but the workflow is FAST.

Btw I was playing around with Logic again after two years and I have to say the new version it’s brilliant!
I agree with you about Apple, $199 and what a hell of a program!

[Passing Bye]

....and am working towards using Logic again....

Did you had a chance to test Logic 10.5 CPU usage? Is it same as before or live/clip launching stuff had influence on that aspect too?

[pdxindy]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

[pdxindy]

....and am working towards using Logic again....

Did you had a chance to test Logic 10.5 CPU usage? Is it same as before or live/clip launching stuff had influence on that aspect too?

No specific testing done, but the CPU seems about the same as before. The latest Logic is a very impressive update! I also very much like the remote app on my iPad

[machinesworking]

....and am working towards using Logic again....

Did you had a chance to test Logic 10.5 CPU usage? Is it same as before or live/clip launching stuff had influence on that aspect too?

I haven't had a chance to yet, I don't figure it's much of a CPU cost though. Honestly the differences between the major old school DAWs isn't enough to make me choose one over the other, DP, Logic, and Reaper all perform very similarly with Reaper coming in first and Logic usually only one plug in behind DP. <-- To be fair as well, Logic being better tested against than poor under appreciated DP, has less of a hit with things like Maschine, MPC, and other sequencer style plug ins.
Bitwig does perform significantly better than Live though, and generally not as good as the big DAWs.

[dellboy]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

[Biscotto]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Rude? I even mention how good your comments were that encouraged me to get into BitWig.
I’m sorry I hurt you “safe space” Man
On the other hand your reasons to stick with BWS look to me like a cage made of MPE and Polyphonic modulations. That’s definitely your choices and your rights.

I also find useful the fact that with m4l I can, in most cases, get incredibly useful tools for free and pay for core features when added to the program on updates.
BWS adds those tools, in limited number, periodically and charge a full fee.

That’s another topic but a valid observation.

And if someone has the time and will to create awesome tools, that also can be done in Ableton. Yes PITA but available on demand.