Why you left Bitwig?

[machinesworking]

Still think your are a very talented BWS user, but definitely the Cage comment is how I see it (if it were myself) and not necessarily personal at all.

No one is in cage because they want a feature. Just like no one is in a cage because they play drums, or guitar etc. so they want a drum set or a guitar.

It's a weird and awkward dig at someone to say they are caged by a personal choice. You're not caged by liking Live even if it is lacking a feature, and honestly as far as the word itself is concerned, it makes more of a sense to talk about being in a cage for a lack of a feature in a DAW. Anyway we should move on, the conversation about your personal words and whether you like Bitwig or not is done IMO.

[Biscotto]

Still think your are a very talented BWS user, but definitely the Cage comment is how I see it (if it were myself) and not necessarily personal at all.

No one is in cage because they want a feature. Just like no one is in a cage because they play drums, or guitar etc. so they want a drum set or a guitar.

It's a weird and awkward dig at someone to say they are caged by a personal choice. You're not caged by liking Live even if it is lacking a feature, and honestly as far as the word itself is concerned, it makes more of a sense to talk about being in a cage for a lack of a feature in a DAW. Anyway we should move on, the conversation about your personal words and whether you like Bitwig or not is done IMO.

That’s how I see it and how I would feel about.
Move on? Of course! I did It in my last post, did you?

[pdxindy]

It never looked like a direct attack on Bitwig to me, but if you took it that way then maybe he has a point.

An attack on Bitwig? It was a derogatory and mean spirited attack on people, not software. Such attacks have nothing to do with Bitwig but rather with how people treat other human beings. This thread has dozens of posters making various points about what they don’t like about Bitwig and nobody said anything in reply to most of them.

[pdxindy]

So you think Live will get MPE support in the next major update? I hope so, not that I’m likely to upgrade (still have suite 9) and use Live. They would need to add full midi channel support (not there currently) and it could also be a lot of work to integrate it to M4L and all the Live instruments. I doubt the AAS synths will be updated for MPE. My guess is it will be staged process and will take a couple of major and minor updates to fully realize.

My two main DAWs before I got interested in MPE were Live and DP10. I don't think for plug ins in general it would be that hard for Live to get MPE compared to DP10. I'm not sure what's holding them back really? Probably some CPU spikes etc. associated with addressing that much MIDI information all at once. Live already has a single record enabled function that works with Push etc. to auto assign controllers like Bitwig etc. it's just not addressing 16 channels currently. OTOH DP addresses the "Any" setting for MIDI channels in the main menu, not per track, so IMO it will take them even longer to address MPE, or they will have to add in a new type of MIDI address with an "All" setting. Compared, Live could just revamp it's Any setting to an All setting.

They're slow as molasses these days in terms of upgrades though. I don't really get it? Live, Logic and Pro Tools are so far above the other DAWs in terms of sales it's not funny. They can't be hurting for money! With Both DP and Live it could be said that they wanted to 100% follow MIDI 2.0 specs, and Ableton have an even more prominent role in MIDI 2.0 than MOTU so..

To properly add MPE, each Recorded note needs to have midi channel data attached to it. Implementing that across the app (Live) might be a holdup.

Then again there might not be a holdup other than it not being a priority for them. I imagine it is only a small percentage of users who want it added.

Of course we can only speculate about the internal thought processes at Ableton

[pdxindy]

But it is true! Defending your points in a Topic dedicated to users moving on is weak since no one has call you on your choice for still using BWS out of the blue.

I was asked a question about modulation and so I replied in some detail.

Perhaps you’re the one who is weak and stuck in a popularity cage and focused on defending your choices when nobody even criticized them.

Maybe you are projecting your own characteristics outside onto someone else.

And maybe none of that matters and we are all better off staying focused on gear.

[Biscotto]

It never looked like a direct attack on Bitwig to me, but if you took it that way then maybe he has a point.

An attack on Bitwig? It was a derogatory and mean spirited attack on people, not software. Such attacks have nothing to do with Bitwig but rather with how people treat other human beings. This thread has dozens of posters making various points about what they don’t like about Bitwig and nobody said anything in reply to most of them.

Listen pdxindy, you are going overboard, I have already explained in my later post and addressed our discord and discomfort.

You are really overdoing it.
Derogatory and mean?
In what world are you living? You can’t even take a little uncomfortable opinion?

I actually wasted my apologies to you.
Now I’m really sorry....

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

[wasabi25]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

This crap is unnecessary in what was a friendly conversation “ It's more of a "Users War" jumping in to desperately defend "Their Baby" as soon someone from anywhere on the planet says something "Inappropriate" to their "Current and Transitory DAW" of choice ATM.”

Stick to gear not personal attacks

Agree, at this point he really got too personally involved in something so casual as leaving one DAW for 11 others, there's like last 5 pages of why Biscotto left Bitwig, let's move on from it already.

"there's like last 5 pages of why Biscotto left Bitwig, let's move on from it already."
whoa.......

[Biscotto]

And maybe none of that matters and we are all better off staying focused on gear.

100% agree!

[pdxindy]

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

The latest Logic is excellent. I also find the Remote app on my iPad Pro more enjoyable to use than I ever did Push with Live or Bitwig. Too many button combos to remember. The Logic Remote app I was able to figure everything out in minutes... and if I don’t use it for a while it’s easy to jump right back in.

[Biscotto]

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

The latest Logic is excellent. I also find the Remote app on my iPad Pro more enjoyable to use than I ever did Push with Live or Bitwig. Too many button combos to remember. The Logic Remote app I was able to figure everything out in minutes... and if I don’t use it for a while it’s easy to jump right back in.

I was never in the mood to get a controller since I am more of a 80% Linear composition kind of guy, (I know... Ableton? BWS? ) but the iPad thing I haven't tried yet and now I probably will.
Again... you drove me to BWS and now the iPad thing.

Peace pdxindy, we all love music.

[machinesworking]

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

The latest Logic is excellent. I also find the Remote app on my iPad Pro more enjoyable to use than I ever did Push with Live or Bitwig. Too many button combos to remember. The Logic Remote app I was able to figure everything out in minutes... and if I don’t use it for a while it’s easy to jump right back in.

Arrgh! I've avoided getting an iPad for 10 years, honestly I love Bitwig and Lives' Push 2 implementation, but that App is sooo great looking! DP8 I believe introduced an iPhone App that was fantastic, but MOTU never developed an iPad version, and let the iPhone app depreciate from the App store and later iOS versions!

One thing, I hate Logics MIDI input port shortcoming, it seriously takes the fun out of multi MIDI input setups, only a single MPE device at a time can be used, no BeatStep Pro or MPK88 along with the Linnstrument here. It's one area where Bitwig completely rules, MPE and regular instruments all inputing at the same time. Super quick 8 channel MPE setups for dual MPE setups on the Linnstrument. Alas no Articulation mappings though. For under $75 you get all major libraries articulations mapped in Logic, plus mostly better CPU performance etc.

[Biscotto]

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

The latest Logic is excellent. I also find the Remote app on my iPad Pro more enjoyable to use than I ever did Push with Live or Bitwig. Too many button combos to remember. The Logic Remote app I was able to figure everything out in minutes... and if I don’t use it for a while it’s easy to jump right back in.

Arrgh! I've avoided getting an iPad for 10 years, honestly I love Bitwig and Lives' Push 2 implementation, but that App is sooo great looking! DP8 I believe introduced an iPhone App that was fantastic, but MOTU never developed an iPad version, and let the iPhone app depreciate from the App store and later iOS versions!

One thing, I hate Logics MIDI input port shortcoming, it seriously takes the fun out of multi MIDI input setups, only a single MPE device at a time can be used, no BeatStep Pro or MPK88 along with the Linnstrument here. It's one area where Bitwig completely rules, MPE and regular instruments all inputing at the same time. Super quick 8 channel MPE setups for dual MPE setups on the Linnstrument. Alas no Articulation mappings though. For under $75 you get all major libraries articulations mapped in Logic, plus mostly better CPU performance etc.

Do you use a MPE capable keyboard? How is the sensitivity from a regular piano? Do you need to add more force than usual when playing? This is why so far MPE is not an issue for me even if I could go on the piano roll and start manipulating the expressions.
I had no chance yet to experiment with one and so I'm not missing that limitation which seems to be well implemented in BWS and it would not be an issue in Logic...yet, but it could.

[pdxindy]

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

The latest Logic is excellent. I also find the Remote app on my iPad Pro more enjoyable to use than I ever did Push with Live or Bitwig. Too many button combos to remember. The Logic Remote app I was able to figure everything out in minutes... and if I don’t use it for a while it’s easy to jump right back in.

Arrgh! I've avoided getting an iPad for 10 years, honestly I love Bitwig and Lives' Push 2 implementation, but that App is sooo great looking! DP8 I believe introduced an iPhone App that was fantastic, but MOTU never developed an iPad version, and let the iPhone app depreciate from the App store and later iOS versions!

One thing, I hate Logics MIDI input port shortcoming, it seriously takes the fun out of multi MIDI input setups, only a single MPE device at a time can be used, no BeatStep Pro or MPK88 along with the Linnstrument here. It's one area where Bitwig completely rules, MPE and regular instruments all inputing at the same time. Super quick 8 channel MPE setups for dual MPE setups on the Linnstrument. Alas no Articulation mappings though. For under $75 you get all major libraries articulations mapped in Logic, plus mostly better CPU performance etc.

Yup... that is my biggest annoyance with Logic. Only one controller at a time! (Unless you use the Environment which is a nightmare)

I suppose if someone uses Push constantly, all the button combos may become second nature... but they never did for me. And when I wouldn’t use it for a month it felt like I was back to square 1

I prefer a tactile surface to the iPad screen, but first time I launched Logic Remote with 10.5 I had no trouble figuring everything out without any manual.

Logic Remote is not complete... but it works great and no doubt Apple will keep developing it.

And Logic 10.5 was a massive update!

[pdxindy]

Anyway, going back to topic, the new Logic update may very well take away the advantage of using Ableton rewire.

I’m being playing with Logic for the better part of the morning....

Now... why I left Ableton?

The latest Logic is excellent. I also find the Remote app on my iPad Pro more enjoyable to use than I ever did Push with Live or Bitwig. Too many button combos to remember. The Logic Remote app I was able to figure everything out in minutes... and if I don’t use it for a while it’s easy to jump right back in.

Arrgh! I've avoided getting an iPad for 10 years, honestly I love Bitwig and Lives' Push 2 implementation, but that App is sooo great looking! DP8 I believe introduced an iPhone App that was fantastic, but MOTU never developed an iPad version, and let the iPhone app depreciate from the App store and later iOS versions!

One thing, I hate Logics MIDI input port shortcoming, it seriously takes the fun out of multi MIDI input setups, only a single MPE device at a time can be used, no BeatStep Pro or MPK88 along with the Linnstrument here. It's one area where Bitwig completely rules, MPE and regular instruments all inputing at the same time. Super quick 8 channel MPE setups for dual MPE setups on the Linnstrument. Alas no Articulation mappings though. For under $75 you get all major libraries articulations mapped in Logic, plus mostly better CPU performance etc.

Do you use a MPE capable keyboard? How is the sensitivity from a regular piano? Do you need to add more force than usual when playing? This is why so far MPE is not an issue for me even if I could go on the piano roll and start manipulating the expressions.
I had no chance yet to experiment with one and so I'm not missing that limitation which seems to be well implemented in BWS and it would not be an issue in Logic...yet, but it could.

I have an Osmose on preorder, own a Haken Continuum and a Linnstrument. Haven’t touched the Osmose yet... it is the only one that is like a regular keyboard.

Generally you don’t need to add more force... MPE needs more skill and nuance. MPE controllers have more sensitivity.

[machinesworking]

Do you use a MPE capable keyboard? How is the sensitivity from a regular piano? Do you need to add more force than usual when playing? This is why so far MPE is not an issue for me even if I could go on the piano roll and start manipulating the expressions.
I had no chance yet to experiment with one and so I'm not missing that limitation which seems to be well implemented in BWS and it would not be an issue in Logic...yet, but it could.

So I bought a Roli Seaboard Block with the mini keys, liked it, but thought maybe the bigger version wouldn't have me squishing the rubber keys as much.. This didn't turn out to be the case. Other people love the Roli's they're pretty obviously the most popular MPE controller, but I try to play them too forcefully and end up getting disappointed in the the action.

I went ahead and bought a Linnstrument a while ago, and 100% it's more my style. It's a grid layout like the Push, but setup for playing like an instrument whereas Push is limiting that way. One HUGE advantage of the Linnstrument over the Roli is that the Linnstrument is not software controlled. It's got 6 memory slots for configurations, and the onboard chip instantly switches from a fixed pitch when you first strike it to the 16 channel pitch that MPE has. this means that unlike the Roli, you do not have to learn how to strike the key at exactly the middle every time in order to not be slightly off pitch.

IMO, Roli dropped the ball here, even fantastic players demoing it on youtube reveal the limitation of the Roli computer controlled mapping, since you can hear slightly off pitch notes in any fast run people do.

The obvious downside to the Linnstrument is it's a grid of 128 or 200 squares, not a keyboard, but beyond that (and personally I don't mind that at all), it's much better than the Roli. I'm keeping the tiny 24 key Seaboard Block though, I do like in certain sounds the way you can glide in from closed to open filter etc. with the slide feature, just don't attempt full pressure and slide at the same time.
Keith McMillian Instruments have an interesting looking flat keyboard MPE controller, would love to see how that plays. I recall them also relying on software for controlling the QueNexus I had though, so maybe the same shortcomings with pitch, dunno.