I actually don't exactly care how it is called.SJ_Digriz wrote:Ok, read my post again. I fully understand that you can use the effect DEVICE outputs for this in the hardware world. This is NOT the channel output.
See, in VST I could set up a group with an effect as an insert. This literally makes effect and group output the same.
The groups in VST worked just like any other channel (the only difference being that you could route whatever signal but the soundcard input into it).
You could just send something from a send into the very same group again.
The result (apart from latency, which we're not talking about yet)is 100% the same as in my last described hardware scenario (send > effect > stereo/2mono channel > send to FX unit again), thus creating a feedback loop.
Well, as you allready said by yourself, there's no alternative once you only got a 2 I/O card.My point is there are alternatives that aren't that difficult.
And that's what things are not about either. Even if your card supports virtual channels, straight internal rerouting (without passing the converters again), it's not exactly the same because things wouldn't happen internally - which is what all us 100% native people want. So, for instance, a song utilizing the workaround you posted, wouldn't play back properly on a different machine.
If I understand correctly, you'd like to know about why I said the FX channels aren't exactly like what you may find on a hardware console.Also, please explain the send thingy that I quoted. I actually respect your understanding of the apps Sascha. I want to make sure I know what it is you are referring to there.
They are, but they're simple returns (something you often find on hardware consoles, just a button or a reduced channel strip with stereo ins) that don't feature certain things, namely sends.
And that's the very reason you're using groups instead of FX channels (or racks, or whatever you may call them): To be able to setup sends to other FX devices.
A very common thing would be to setup a delay that way and send some portions of it to a reverb effect (in case you just insert it into the FX channel, the complete delayed signal would be effected by any reverb following).
And yes, this is VERY well possible with the current implementation of groups and FX racks.
It's just like it allways was, with the (highly welcomed) addition that FX channels per se are allready more flexible (nothing like the lame standard send FX rack in VST), so often you may not even need groups (because you can allready insert, say, an EQ into your reverb FX channel).
So, what I am doing is: use plain FX channels for more or less simple FX routings and groups in case I need something more sophisticated (such as sending portions of an effect to another one, as described above).
Phew - so, what am I complaining about?
Actually, I am not, at least not exactly. The ONLY thing being impossible with SX's recent implementation is that you can't create your own feedback loops (which was possible in VST).
I only used them once or twice, so I'm defenitely not missing much at all.
All I wanted to point out during these rather lengthy posts was, that a) it was possible in VST and b) it's possible more or less easily when using hardware consoles.
Personally, I wouldn't even complain if they never re-implemented it, since I really wouldn't use it much anyways (if at all), but parts of this thread were about the possibility (or lack thereof) to create your own feedbacks.
To Stefan: Well, from a mathematical point of view, you're somewhat correct, the feedbacks would most likely sound totally different in case you changed your buffersize, still, there's some interesting FX possible. Just run a signal through some overdrive, delay it, and feed things back into the same channel. Really weird, defenitely more dramatic than simply using the delays onboard feedback control.
In case you control the delay feedback (of the delay that is) via some controller, there's some great and nasty FX possible that you simply can't get from any other routing scheme.
I used to do such things a lot back when I had only cheap hardware but wanted some sound FX though.
As said before, these days it's of less importance to me. But it might make more sense for others though.
Hope this makes it clear.
Actually, I wasn't attacking the SX mixer (at least not for the routing portion of it), for me it's pretty much sufficient and rather easy to set up.
where do you route the different channels? you need a group for each fx in this case, as i mentioned in my previous post.