Blunt Force VS Critical Evaluation

[machinesworking]

I'm ripping this from the Maschine thread, because I think it deserves it's own topic.

...That and people who get frozen with too many choices, whittle it down to just two synths and Maschine, MPC etc. and they actually can write music apparently?. IMO it's stupid, choices don't get in your way unless you let them, it's easy to self impose rules to start writing in a direction you want to go in, if you have any sense of what you want to do as a musician. It's why most sucessful musicians have a ton of equipment with a few pieces they use all the time etc.

I know you said "IMO", but this is very inconsiderate and sound like something @BONES would write. Not all people are the same, I think it depends on temperament a lot. It's like if you called introvert people "stupid", because they don't thrive at parties or prefer to sit down alone to solve a problem rather that throw around dozens of ideas hoping something will stick

IMO is important of course. I do think it's stupid though, people are constantly talking about how their downsizing made them more creative, they are then forced to work with what they have etc. completely disregarding that anyone who owns more than a few plug ins or hardware etc. is making the choice to ignore most of what they own. They tout their own minimalism as somehow superior when it's a brute force approach to what amounts to a personal problem, writers block because of too many options.

I'm not saying that it's not an effective method, but it hints at a bigger picture issue. And to jump into the thicket a bit here, it goes right into mankind's new found addiction to labeling themselves, regardless of whether it's a positive or negative thing to do. If you have writers block because of too many choices, often it's because you simply don't have the creativity or discrimination to make the choice, and you need to look into why you're doing music in the first place.

It's not important that we make music, but I often wonder how many people who start selling gear and plug ins, to minimize to get creative end up just dropping out completely? I would bet it's much larger than people think, because IMO most of the writers block that comes from selection freezing, too many choices etc. is coming from a lack of discrimination, and if you can't discriminate from 100 kick drums, you're probably going to have the same issue with your choices on breaks and bridges etc.

Or to be blunt, 90% or more IMO of too many choice type posts or attempts to whittle down come from people who literally do not have a clue of what kind of music they want to do, or how to make it in the first place. Their lack of ability in some key area of the creative process is what's really blocking their creativity, so they blame the fact they bought dozens of pieces of gear before knowing how to use the gear they already have.

It's the same with posts about how they can make a great loop, but can't make it a song. Maybe actually studying the 2000 year accumulated knowledge we have on music is a good thing? I'm part idiot savant myself, but at one point just doing basic music study course was extremely liberating, because this stuff is math and science as well as emotion and unicorn magic.

Also, what's wrong with being stupid? Everyone is obsessed with being "right" all the time. What a boring and stagnating state to fake. Every time I realize I did or said something stupid, although painful, it's where growth happens. You get almost nothing from being "right" in front of others, but if you stupidly do not evaluate why you're having issues with something like the creative process, then you will fail. Bluntly, it's not stupid to be wrong, it's stupid to be wrong, then double down on what you're wrong about.

[vurt]

no issue with other people choosing a streamlined set up, if the extra choice does get in their way.


touting their way of working as superior (whatever that way is) is bullshit.
what works for me might not work for you, vice versa and so on.

the superior way is what works for the individual.
neither way is stupid

[machinesworking]

no issue with other people choosing a streamlined set up, if the extra choice does get in their way.


touting their way of working as superior (whatever that way is) is bullshit.
what works for me might not work for you, vice versa and so on.

the superior way is what works for the individual.
neither way is stupid

Exactly, but IMO you have bigger issues than too many choices when that gets in your way. I think it’s a band aid on a bullet hole, but yes whatever works.

I think about using a mac plus and an Ensoniq
Mirage in the 80’s and do not fondly look back on that at all. We got a lot done, but it was slow, and we always wanted a Synclavier. We were forced into low fi, that’s not an issue these days at all.

[fese]

I am wondering why do you even bother how other people chose to work? I personally couldn’t care less. It’s highly subjective anyway.

[vurt]

I am wondering why do you even bother how other people chose to work? I personally couldn’t care less. It’s highly subjective anyway.

this!

[machinesworking]

I am wondering why do you even bother how other people chose to work? I personally couldn’t care less. It’s highly subjective anyway.

The topic of too many choices and writers block comes up all the time. The purpose of proposing strong opinions in this case is to stimulate conversation. To talk about methods of overcoming them, and my argument is too many choices should not be the only thing people are looking at.

Here’s a scenario, someone loves music, they buy a ton of gear they see people on forums such as this like, and still cannot finish a song. They par down, even go DAWless, and still can’t get beyond a loop. Maybe spending months learning their gear sparks them? Even bigger, we live the the post punk era where people downplay learning even basic music theory, and IMO in no way are all my favorite musicians hunting and pecking to come up with a scale or a bridge for a song. Then there’s not actually filtering your tastes down to what you truly love in music enough to write a song in the first place.

The point was to debate and share what works for you, not to belittle what works for others. My point was/is that getting sidetracked by having to choose a VSTi IMO is indicative of a bigger problem.

[chk071]

I really think we all are wired differently.

Some walls of modular synths like Chemical Brothers have in their studio would immediately kill any impulse and motivation I have to make sounds. Limiting myself to one or two synths, or monophonic stuff isn't the way for me either. Sort of in the middle somewhere, with a tendency to "less is more".

Whatever works for you really. I think you said it. "IMO". Important point.

I don't see anyone claiming he is superior, BTW. I think that's just a overreactive interpretation. I don't have a problem with people speaking out their opinion, and even saying that they don't see any other way than doing it the way they're doing. That's still a opinion, and doesn't have to apply to everyone.

I think even the people with a warehouse full of gear use a very limited selection of these instruments on a daily base. Has nothing to do with limtations, but rather with the necessity to work with the tools that you know best, and you think work best for most situations.

[machinesworking]

I really think we all are wired differently.

Some walls of modular synths like Chemical Brothers have in their studio would immediately kill any impulse and motivation I have to make sounds. Limiting myself to one or two synths, or monophonic stuff isn't the way for me either. Sort of in the middle somewhere, with a tendency to "less is more".

Whatever works for you really. I think you said it. "IMO". Important point.

I don't see anyone claiming he is superior, BTW. I think that's just a overreactive interpretation. I don't have a problem with people speaking out their opinion, and even saying that they don't see any other way than doing it the way they're doing. That's still a opinion, and doesn't have to apply to everyone.

I think even the people with a warehouse full of gear use a very limited selection of these instruments on a daily base. Has nothing to do with limtations, but rather with the necessity to work with the tools that you know best, and you think work best for most situations.

Mostly though you're already doing the "critical evaluation" thing. You know that parring down too much doesn't work, and neither does buying everything and renting a warehouse.

That's what I'm getting at. If you're feeling overwhelmed and experiencing writers block, then knowing what to do is the first step. I do not think parring down will help someone go from a folder filled with starts that are just a simple loop to writing complete songs. I think knowing what is limiting you is the first step, and that requires making choices, like knowing a room filled with modulars isn't going to help you write any more than deciding to use only the built in plug ins in your DAW.
Knowing the equipment you currently own, knowing what kind of music you want to do, and acquiring the knowledge and skill to write that music. All those things are IMO more important, at the very least as important as parring down.

In the bigger picture part of the equation is being able to have options and not use them, whether it's plug ins, hardware or musical knowledge and choices.

[fese]

I am wondering why do you even bother how other people chose to work? I personally couldn’t care less. It’s highly subjective anyway.

The topic of too many choices and writers block comes up all the time. The purpose of proposing strong opinions in this case is to stimulate conversation. To talk about methods of overcoming them, and my argument is too many choices should not be the only thing people are looking at.

Here’s a scenario, someone loves music, they buy a ton of gear they see people on forums such as this like, and still cannot finish a song. They par down, even go DAWless, and still can’t get beyond a loop. Maybe spending months learning their gear sparks them? Even bigger, we live the the post punk era where people downplay learning even basic music theory, and IMO in no way are all my favorite musicians hunting and pecking to come up with a scale or a bridge for a song. Then there’s not actually filtering your tastes down to what you truly love in music enough to write a song in the first place.

The point was to debate and share what works for you, not to belittle what works for others. My point was/is that getting sidetracked by having to choose a VSTi IMO is indicative of a bigger problem.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re mixing several topics (buying gear, writers block, learning/not learning music theory) into one crude theory why other people are doing it wrong and cannot make a whole song, making assumptions and remote diagnosing all the way. A bit like some old pensioner complaining about today’s youth. To me, that comes off as rather condescending (IMO). If you really want to help people and not “belittle” them, maybe you should try to be more constructive and not use phrases like “it’s stupid” or “their lack of ability”? No one is going to listen to your advice after something like that.

I agree though that the amount of gear is not the deciding factor, but that goes both ways. Neither does writer’s block have anything to do with it. Gear doesn’t make a musician, that’s a truism.

[machinesworking]

I am wondering why do you even bother how other people chose to work? I personally couldn’t care less. It’s highly subjective anyway.

The topic of too many choices and writers block comes up all the time. The purpose of proposing strong opinions in this case is to stimulate conversation. To talk about methods of overcoming them, and my argument is too many choices should not be the only thing people are looking at.

Here’s a scenario, someone loves music, they buy a ton of gear they see people on forums such as this like, and still cannot finish a song. They par down, even go DAWless, and still can’t get beyond a loop. Maybe spending months learning their gear sparks them? Even bigger, we live the the post punk era where people downplay learning even basic music theory, and IMO in no way are all my favorite musicians hunting and pecking to come up with a scale or a bridge for a song. Then there’s not actually filtering your tastes down to what you truly love in music enough to write a song in the first place.

The point was to debate and share what works for you, not to belittle what works for others. My point was/is that getting sidetracked by having to choose a VSTi IMO is indicative of a bigger problem.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re mixing several topics (buying gear, writers block, learning/not learning music theory) into one crude theory why other people are doing it wrong and cannot make a whole song, making assumptions and remote diagnosing all the way. A bit like some old pensioner complaining about today’s youth. To me, that comes off as rather condescending (IMO). If you really want to help people and not “belittle” them, maybe you should try to be more constructive and not use phrases like “it’s stupid” or “their lack of ability”? No one is going to listen to your advice after something like that.

I agree though that the amount of gear is not the deciding factor, but that goes both ways. Neither does writer’s block have anything to do with it. Gear doesn’t make a musician, that’s a truism.

Writers block has everything to do with it. If too much or too little gear is affecting you, then that's part of the problem. Absolutely no one finishing material looks at their gear and thinks "I need to sell this stuff or I'm not getting anything done."

I'm sorry I absolutely do not care if you have some sort of need to argue about my tone. I'm a mediocre keyboard player, I would never be insulted by someone pointing that out. If I get stuck writing material and don't realize it's because it's beyond my abilities, I do not feel terrible being told that I can change that. If I did, I would gladly take the momentary ego hit in exchange for the knowledge. If someone can't do that, they will never grow.

so far, I've pointed out many areas to overcome writers block beyond being frozen by too many hardware and software choices, that, was the point. So far you've played the role of tone police.

Bluntly, In order to write music you like you need to be able to whittle down choices, it does not have to be brute force approach, locking yourself in a room with a DAW and one VSTi or getting only hardware etc. (not that that's terrible, it's just unnecessary IMO) In truth you're going to have to make choices every step of the way, Sometimes not knowing what you want to do is part of the problem. Sometimes it's that you do not have the tools available, whether physical equipment, or training and musical knowledge. Getting offended by that won't help.

[fese]

Well, I didn’t intend to play “tone police “ (whatever that is), I just wanted to point out that your style of communication maybe stands in the way of your good intentions, and judging by the responses you got here, you might realize that, too.
I do however realize that my own post wasn’t exactly a prime example of what I consider good communication (e.g. “constructive criticism”, not negativity) and I do apologize for that.
I am generally convinced that positive communication is far more effective than being “blunt” and telling people “to take the hit”, especially with strangers and if you want to convince them. It’s basic psychology. Antagonize people and they most likely antagonize back, whether you like it or not.
But that’s your choice, of course.

[antic604]

Like I said - unwillingly - in the OP, I think it's a temperamental thing.

I DON'T want to go into politics, but I can't help but think it lines up pretty well with original meanings of "progressive" and "conservative", i.e. the former is creative, open, adventurous, daring, chaotic and the latter is ordered, dilligent, conscientious, precise, etc.

Some people will load up whatever samples or presets their stumble upon to their DAW, mix them up, bounce stuff ASAP and create something out of it. Others will search for hours for the "perfect" sound, once they find it they'll tweak it to death to make it "better" and never bounce anything, because they might "need" to adjust something later... The former thrive with unlimited choices and vast sound palette, the latter get paralyzed. The former can limit and constrain themselves by the power of their will, the latter need to do it "physically" by simply reducing the number of gear, plugins, samples, etc. Invoking the 80/20 rule, the former group will focus on the 80, the latter on the 20.

Both groups - IMO - can write great music, it's just that their process is different. Although I think great artists will mostly come from the former group, whereas the latter would probably end up as session musicians in the past or mix/master engineers nowadays

Obviously if someone dreams of becoming a great artist and/or living off of their music, they can't be in the former group and if they are, they should work hard to improve their mindset and approach because otherwise they'll fail.

And BTW, this is golden (so are his other episodes in the series) and on topic:

[vurt]

ah, if im now reading it correct, writers block is the problem?

and you dont think that going minimal will necessarily help.

in this case, yes id agree.
in the same way, if you are a minimalist normally who becomes stuck, going out and buying a ton of gear wont help.
nope, the gear is not the issue.

you need an idea, an idea of how to realise that idea and the motivation to do it.
these 3 things will get you there.

some may say what about knowledge of theory, id suggest that comes under how to realise your idea.
if your idea is to make an electro acoustic collage using real world sounds, normal theory wont help.

you might however, after careful consideration realise for this particular idea, you want a piano, in a room. then by all means minimise

[machinesworking]

Like I said - unwillingly - in the OP, I think it's a temperamental thing.

I DON'T want to go into politics, but I can't help but think it lines up pretty well with original meanings of "progressive" and "conservative", i.e. the former is creative, open, adventurous, daring, chaotic and the latter is ordered, dilligent, conscientious, precise, etc.

Some people will load up whatever samples or presets their stumble upon to their DAW, mix them up, bounce stuff ASAP and create something out of it. Others will search for hours for the "perfect" sound, once they find it they'll tweak it to death to make it "better" and never bounce anything, because they might "need" to adjust something later... The former thrive with unlimited choices and vast sound palette, the latter get paralyzed. The former can limit and constrain themselves by the power of their will, the latter need to do it "physically" by simply reducing the number of gear, plugins, samples, etc. Invoking the 80/20 rule, the former group will focus on the 80, the latter on the 20.

Both groups - IMO - can write great music, it's just that their process is different. Although I think great artists will mostly come from the former group, whereas the latter would probably end up as session musicians in the past or mix/master engineers nowadays

Obviously if someone dreams of becoming a great artist and/or living off of their music, they can't be in the former group and if they are, they should work hard to improve their mindset and approach because otherwise they'll fail.

I think mostly that it's important to know what you want, if you come into a song at a workstation with no ideas about what excites you or entertains you, then you can feel immediately overwhelmed. People unintentionally kill their creativity in a multitude of ways:

"I have dozens of loops that don't turn into songs."
Everyone does.

"I can't think of what kind of break I want for this next part?"
Read up on theory, sometimes that helps to remind you of the possibilities.

Sometimes taking a break from writing to really learn the gear you have is a huge inspiration personally. I can go for months just getting better at programing synths or deep diving into a DAWs features, and always afterwards I end up in a creative mode.

Like we've all been talking about, self limiting works, deciding to not use, or use only a few select plug ins, and other limitations like that can force you to make choices and get things done.

And BTW, this is golden (so are his other episodes in the series) and on topic:

He's talking my language.

[jancivil]

This supposed dichotomy between wildly creative and disciplined and organized is just not useful, as it is false.
and right after that we get another one, the person who will just "load up whatever" and get it done vs someone who gets into the sound deeply who gets nowhere. Who are you talking about? I finish nearly 100% of ideas and I can spend weeks on the sound design, in fact it's integral to the idea. I find sound inspiring, and some sounds just aren't to me. .

David Lynch, in an interview Youtube suggested to me the other day, advises 'Writers block? Don't worry about it, get a setup and be patient.'
get a setup, meaning get something you know how to work; if you're working and you have some idea of how to execute, you have ideas. Writer's block is probably the absence of some aspect of this. And in modern times people have a notion ("productivity") they should be having ideas where there is less than a solid grounding in place.

If we're going to worry about people that just ain't happenin', here's my advice: inspiration as elusive is a bad idea. Ideas come to those who are working it. It's not divine, usually, it's one thing leading to another thing in a flow. There is a zone where it happens and your chances are as high as how prepared you are.