Have Modern VST Instruments Replaced Your Hardware Synths ?

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It’s the 8HP Expert Sleepers Disting EX in SD Instrument mode that does the Savoy Truffle. So, you come up with a Eurorack patch that you really like – all cables and knobs and warm glowing lights. You tell the Disting I want yay many octaves with whatever many velocities of each note, with however many round robins per velocity per note, for some amount of milliseconds each hit. The Disting generates the 1v/Oct pitches and the requisite gates and makes your rack generate the entire assembly of sounds, and not only does it record (96/24) each and every note strike to a micro SD card, it cuffs and stuffs the entire assembly into a playable sampler-style 8-voice polyphonic SD instrument. This means you don’t need to keep the patch documented. You don’t even need to keep the modules you used to make it. You have a unique SD Sample instrument that’s yours and yours alone and yours forever.

And that’s just one 8HP Eurorack module. That’s what takes the Disting EX out of the realm of sheer effing genius into the domain of ‘king game changer. I expect Omnisphere has its moments too.

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Tendou wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:31 pm I used to have a Subsequent 37 and I sold it because to be honest I didnt use it. You have to fire up the analog stuff, some need warmup and then you have to go through the drag to record, compensate delay, cant change anything on the fly anymore and that I say with a hardware synth which could save presets. Still - on software every thing of that you can do in a blink of the eye. Yes hardware got a tactile feel to it which is great but I learned to produce without that bc I started like 5 years ago and software was omnipresent at that time, so I don't miss having a tactile, dedicated knob. If I want a Knob I route it to my Push2 and I have a tactile feel which is plenty enough for me. and lets face it: The legend sounds as great as a moog does so 50$ vs 1400$ - that was an easy choice for me bc on the price I see A LOT of advantages in using software vs a hardware synth and maybe I'm just not experienced enough yet but to me modern software in the right hands doesnt sound worse than hardware nowadays.
I feel the same about my minibrute and push2. I find myself prefer running RePro or Diva instead of plugging the audio cable and wait for the synth to heat for few minutes.
Push 2 makes it very easy to map the parameters needed (just click on the parameters and they will be added one by one to Pushes knobs by banks).

On the other hand, I find my digital synth MODX very useful in many ways. Finding a dx7 sysex bank and converting it, is very easy, so i already have access to thousands of presets. Secondly, the bread and butter sounds are very nice while connecting midi and sending/receiving to 16 channels is very easy and everything can be saved for future progress (of course for live gigs, the MODX is fantastic, but I don't play live). Oh and I can get everything playing from the MODX while I see the cpu in Ableton Live not exceeding 2% :D

Optimum sound quality is not always a priority if you already have really good sound sources. I really don't care if it's analog or digital. Inspiring and convenient workflow come first whatever the kind of setup I have.

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Tendou wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:31 pm I used to have a Subsequent 37 and I sold it because to be honest I didnt use it. You have to fire up the analog stuff, some need warmup and then you have to go through the drag to record, compensate delay, cant change anything on the fly anymore and that I say with a hardware synth which could save presets. Still - on software every thing of that you can do in a blink of the eye. Yes hardware got a tactile feel to it which is great but I learned to produce without that bc I started like 5 years ago and software was omnipresent at that time, so I don't miss having a tactile, dedicated knob. If I want a Knob I route it to my Push2 and I have a tactile feel which is plenty enough for me. and lets face it: The legend sounds as great as a moog does so 50$ vs 1400$ - that was an easy choice for me bc on the price I see A LOT of advantages in using software vs a hardware synth and maybe I'm just not experienced enough yet but to me modern software in the right hands doesnt sound worse than hardware nowadays.
It does sound like maybe you bought the wrong hardware synth for your uses. For example, I have 2 analog hardware synths, a mono and a poly, and neither require any time at all to warm up. I turn them on and use them. Both have presets - one stores 128 user presets, the other can store 1000. Routing/mapping controls to MIDI can be annoying... I almost never do that anymore, I admit. Maybe I'm just too lazy.

While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents, a few get really really close. That's one reason I bought hardware synths with no emulation or clone like ever to occur - at least not any time soon. It's not JUST about tactile, which can encourage creativity and inspiration and exploration, but also about the sound. I myself wouldn't buy a hardware synth when I could get virtually the same sound in software. There's also some analog things that software just isn't as good at (though it's getting closer every year) when it comes to the sound. And hardware synths can be as unique sounding as software synths, so it's a matter of what sounds good not what form factor it takes.

But, at the end of the day, everyone is different, and who cares what anyone else does, really. You as the artist need to pick and choose the tools that make you the most effective at making the music you want to make. That doesn't make your tools and process The Best, just the best for you. Something we all strive for - acquiring the best tools to make our own music.

EDIT: Oh, I also bought an Expert Sleepers USAMO to ensure my hardware synths lock to the tempo of my DAW and don't have drifty notes. It made the analog synths even more like software synths in terms of their behavior. I still have to take a second to drag the audio this way or that in the DAW but, again, that only takes a second or so.

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I think most of the instruments, except guitar, is vsts

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vitocorleone123 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:30 pm While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents, a few get really really close.
Ooooh can I play too ?

Software synths blow away hardware synths, it's not even close.

And round and round we go..... :wheee:

This software vs hardware discussion was interesting.....fifteen years ago.

Now someone start a PC vs Mac thread........... :party:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:22 am
vitocorleone123 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:30 pm While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents, a few get really really close.
Ooooh can I play too ?

Software synths blow away hardware synths, it's not even close.

And round and round we go..... :wheee:

This software vs hardware discussion was interesting.....fifteen years ago.

Now someone start a PC vs Mac thread........... :party:
No, that's just ridiculous. It's on a case-by-case basis as with most tools. Sometimes one is better than the other, sometimes they're close enough and no one cares about whatever subtle difference there is (also depends on the person and the task). :dog: Again, they're just tools. It's not a religion.

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vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 am While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents, a few get really really close"......."It's on a case-by-case basis as with most tools".
You just argued against yourself...and lost. :tu:

Of course it's not a religion. Tell that to the people who still worship analog synths as if they are the pinnacle of synthesis. :wink:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:04 am
vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 am While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents, a few get really really close"......."It's on a case-by-case basis as with most tools".
You just argued against yourself...and lost. :tu:

Of course it's not a religion. Tell that to the people who still worship analog synths as if they are the pinnacle of synthesis. :wink:
Sounds like you have no interest in critical thinking that's associated with having a discussion. OK. I'll just ignore because you're ignoring what's said (talk about totally missing the point!), taking things out of context, etc. Bye.

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vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:29 am Sounds like you have no interest in critical thinking that's associated with having a discussion. OK. I'll just ignore because you're ignoring what's said (talk about totally missing the point!), taking things out of context, etc. Bye.
So because you can't form a cogent argument and someone is disagreeing with you you're going to run away ? Ok Bye. :clap:

It just goes to show this whole software vs hardware argument is totally pointless and always has been and always will be.

It's all subjective. Use whatever inspires you. :tu:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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machinesworking wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:23 pmWhat I mean is eventually everything we did in 2002 on the computer has to be carefully preserved on a dated machine, nobody really does that, we just move on.
The same is true of hardware. Every time I bought a new sequencer, and I owned a few over the years - TB303, QX-7, SQD-1, M1, O1/W, Trinity - I had to rebuild all the songs I wanted to preserve on the new sequencer. The last iteration of them is preserved in a box of Zip-Discs, which are in storage. But every time I upgraded there were songs that weren't worth porting over any longer, so by the time I moved to software, more than half the songs I'd ever performed were lost. I have recordings but I'd have to rebuild them from scratch today if I ever wanted to perform any of them.

OTOH, as long as I can keep installing Orion, I will be able to restore any song we've made ITB, all the way back to 2002 and beyond. In fact, one of the songs on our new album is something I wrote the music for in 2003 but was never quite happy with. In my hardware days that would have been long gone and forgotten.
The thing is though, the moog has outlasted dozens of plug ins, hell NI and Apple in conjunction with my urge to move on hardware wise, have shitcanned a few old songs. Compared, the moog is still capable of reproducing sounds I came up with in 1987.. I'm not sure if it's worth it though, especially seeing the prices people get for the dammed thing?
The thing for me is that there are no sounds I came up with in 1987 (or earlier) that I would want to use today. I have so many better choices with softsynths that I couldn't imagine going back to my hardware MonoPoly or Axxe or ESQ or any of those shitful things. I don't even get any joy from playing them because controlling a softsynth with my Roli is way more satisfying when you want to lose yourself in the moment.
HanafiH wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:55 pmThis means you don’t need to keep the patch documented. You don’t even need to keep the modules you used to make it. You have a unique SD Sample instrument that’s yours and yours alone and yours forever.
The same is true of any patch I create in any instrument, software or hardware. Or, if I really wanted to do something totally bespoke, I could build something in SynthEdit or Reaktor and never share it with anyone else. But that would seem very selfish to me so I'm always happy to share my creations with anyone who wants to use them.
EnGee wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:15 pmOn the other hand, I find my digital synth MODX very useful in many ways. Finding a dx7 sysex bank and converting it, is very easy, so i already have access to thousands of presets. Secondly, the bread and butter sounds are very nice while connecting midi and sending/receiving to 16 channels is very easy and everything can be saved for future progress (of course for live gigs, the MODX is fantastic, but I don't play live). Oh and I can get everything playing from the MODX while I see the cpu in Ableton Live not exceeding 2% :D
Sounds like you wasted a lot of money on your computer, then? Mind you, I rarely see my CPU usage going over 50% but music isn't the most taxing thing I use it for so it doesn't bother me.
vitocorleone123 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:30 pmIt does sound like maybe you bought the wrong hardware synth for your uses. For example, I have 2 analog hardware synths, a mono and a poly, and neither require any time at all to warm up. I turn them on and use them. Both have presets - one stores 128 user presets, the other can store 1000.
Only 1,000? Pah! I think my Analog Keys can store close to 60,000. I use fewer than 10.
Routing/mapping controls to MIDI can be annoying... I almost never do that anymore, I admit. Maybe I'm just too lazy.
That's why the best hardware synths come with a VSTi editor/librarian, which makes them as convenient to set up as a VSTi. That's why all the hardware synths I've kept have a VSTi and I got rid of all the ones that didn't. It's something I only realised recently, I thought I had got rid of stuff for other reasons. The exception is MicroMonsta, which I still have but is the only hardware synth that is not set up to use.
zz242 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:06 amI think most of the instruments, except guitar, is vsts
All my guitars are VSTi and they sound great. As in , really great!
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 amNo, that's just ridiculous. It's on a case-by-case basis as with most tools. Sometimes one is better than the other, sometimes they're close enough and no one cares about whatever subtle difference there is (also depends on the person and the task). :dog: Again, they're just tools. It's not a religion.
When you talk about it like that, it sounds very much like a religion. I see synths as tools, something I use to get a particular job done. Close enough is usually better than I need, mostly I just want something to do a job. i.e. Play a bassline, play a lead part. The part is the important thing and I'll use whichever tool gets the job done with the least amount of effort.

The only useful categorisation I make is by character - I prefer synths with a more aggressive character - Korg synths over Roland, for example. But that's as specific as I feel the need to get. Whether The Legend sounds exactly like a hardware Moog is so inconsequential to the process of writing and producing a song that it's not even worth thinking about. Even the idea that "I need a Moog for that" or "I need that Oberheim sound for this" is ridiculous to me. I'd be thinking "I need something with big, raw oscillators" or "fat, crazy unison" and there'd be a dozen synths that I could use to get that job done. What I am much more likely to do is decide which synth I want to use and then make it work for the part because there are some synths that I really enjoy using - Thorn, bx_oberhausen, TRK-01, MonoFury - that I will choose just because I want to use it, rather than because I've made a critical assessment and decided that I need that particular sound. It's just like any tool - I always look for excuses to use my conventional ring spanners, even when a ratchet ring spanner or an open-ender might do a better job, because I like the way they feel in my hand.

Every month the One Synth Challenge shows us that you can make any half-decent synth do whatever you need it to do. To listen to those entries and still cling to this absurd notion that the difference between a real MiniMoog and a software emulation of it actually matters must induce serious cognitive dissonance.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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BONES wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:47 am
vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 amNo, that's just ridiculous. It's on a case-by-case basis as with most tools. Sometimes one is better than the other, sometimes they're close enough and no one cares about whatever subtle difference there is (also depends on the person and the task). :dog: Again, they're just tools. It's not a religion.
When you talk about it like that, it sounds very much like a religion. I see synths as tools, something I use to get a particular job done. Close enough is usually better than I need, mostly I just want something to do a job. i.e. Play a bassline, play a lead part. The part is the important thing and I'll use whichever tool gets the job done with the least amount of effort.

The only useful categorisation I make is by character - I prefer synths with a more aggressive character - Korg synths over Roland, for example. But that's as specific as I feel the need to get. Whether The Legend sounds exactly like a hardware Moog is so inconsequential to the process of writing and producing a song that it's not even worth thinking about. Even the idea that "I need a Moog for that" or "I need that Oberheim sound for this" is ridiculous to me. I'd be thinking "I need something with big, raw oscillators" or "fat, crazy unison" and there'd be a dozen synths that I could use to get that job done. What I am much more likely to do is decide which synth I want to use and then make it work for the part because there are some synths that I really enjoy using - Thorn, bx_oberhausen, TRK-01, MonoFury - that I will choose just because I want to use it, rather than because I've made a critical assessment and decided that I need that particular sound. It's just like any tool - I always look for excuses to use my conventional ring spanners, even when a ratchet ring spanner or an open-ender might do a better job, because I like the way they feel in my hand.
Exactly. It's not a religion (like a certain person now on ignore had been trying hard to make it about in an inflammatory manner, completely and obtusely missing the point). They're just tools to get the job done. That's what I've been saying. I have the feeling you're keying off of what that person was trying to make things about - which wasn't what I was saying.

Certain synths are better at certain sounds and/or features to build a sound. They might be hardware. They might be software. And, of course, if you love using something, you can still use it to make whatever sound you want (unless it can't). Also, YOU might find it ridiculous to think about the "brand" of a synth, but they all have certain characteristics and excel at some things more than others. You probably have internalized those differences so it's not a conscious thing any more - you're a pro and have been doing this awhile and I have no doubt know your tools of choice inside and out. I, however, find it useful, to be aware of the differences in order to, as you said, "use whichever tool gets the job done with the least amount of effort". For example, getting Serum to sound like Repro-5 might be possible (or the other way around), but that's gonna take a hell of a lot more work on my part than just using Repro-5.

One of the things I did before buying the 2 hardware synths I have (and don't expect to get more, as I have plenty of software synths I use regularly) was to make sure they had software editors. I'm 100% with you on that.

I guess, in the end, my answer to the OPs question/topic is: No. In fact, I've replaced some software synths with hardware. Why? I like the sound of them better, and nothing I have in software sounds the same. If there was software, I would've bought or used it instead. Example: my OB-6. I was prepared to spend up to $500 on software that sound as good or better. There wasn't anything anywhere close. I had hoped oberhausen would (I still have it), and it does share some of the characteristics, but it's a different sound. When I want something in the ballpark of the OB-6 but with more than 6 voices, I turn to oberhausen. Otherwise, almost never. Because, to my ears, it's different in a way that sounds worse (not bad, just not near as good).

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vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:06 am It's not a religion (like a certain person now on ignore had been trying hard to make it about in an inflammatory manner, completely and obtusely missing the point).
I know you've put me on mute but if you had actually made a valid point I wouldn't have missed it. Too bad you couldn't stick around and have a grown up conversation.
vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 am While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents,
That same old tired broad statement "Softsynths don't sound like hardware synths but they're close" nonsense is what I'm addressing.

First of all he started off with a flawed premise that hardware synths automatically sound better than soft synths so soft synths should be somehow obligated to try and sound like hardware.

When you hold the opinion that softsynths sound better than hardware then you see there is no point in trying to dumb them down to hardware level.

Of course that's also a broad statement. Some softsynths sound better than some hardware synths and vice versa.

But it's that opinion not fact that hardware automatically sounds better that I'm pushing back against.

I sold my analog hardware synths because the sound got old and tired. I still have digital hardware synths that almost never get powered up these days because my soft synths are simply superior.

But once again this argument has gone on since the day the first soft synth hit the market and will rage on in perpetuity without any hope for resolution. :shrug:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:04 am
vitocorleone123 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 am While software synths don't quite equal their hardware equivalents, a few get really really close"......."It's on a case-by-case basis as with most tools".
You just argued against yourself...and lost. :tu:

Of course it's not a religion. Tell that to the people who still worship analog synths as if they are the pinnacle of synthesis. :wink:
Some people feel that way, but some people just think of analog synths as another flavor of synthesis and maybe they just want the best representation of that sound that they can get. Or even look at it this way, every synth, even emulations, are different. If one speaks to you, why wouldn’t you use it? Everyone has their own line that they’re willing to cross to get that instrument. To me, Repro and my Prophet 6 are equally good instruments. One is a lot more money and requires space and audio inputs, so I get why someone would just say, “f that, not worth it,” but I’m into it and I have the money to spend, so that’s that. When I want a more clear and constrained kind of sound, Repro delivers and adds some very interesting options, but when I want something that’s a bit more hairy and defuse, the Prophet 6 is my go-to. Maybe if Repro had come out first I’d never have purchased the 6, but I did buy Repro as soon as the pre-release was announced, but I’ve never once thought it was a replacement. Not for a moment.

My line gets drawn at things like vintage synths that are maintenance issues waiting to happen yet fetch prices that would get you a nice used Civic. Even Uli’s clones don’t interest me. Too primitive. I get that’s what his market wants, but I would have liked to see him capture the sound of the classics, yet update things more. The Deepmind gets half of that equation, but I’d like to see him do something better, like put that kind of update into his PPG Wave clone, or better yet, something we’ve never seen before. It’s got to be great though. I’ve passed on a lot of new synths because to me they just don’t sound that special and in many cases the plugin is better. I really don’t get the Virus fans. That’s one big box of nothing special to me. It had it’s day, but I can’t imagine having one in 2020.
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4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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I respect your opinion if it's presented as opinion and not fact. You like Synth A over Synth B but that doesn't automatically make A better than B. I like B but that doesn't automatically make it better than A and so on....

Once again.....
Teksonik wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:50 am It's all subjective. Use whatever inspires you. :tu:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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