The next Live update?

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pdxindy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:34 pm
liquidsound wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:10 pm Why not... unless that’s makes you feel better :wink:
There is so much ahead of us that there is room for improvement and innovation.
Ableton may well do the unexpected.
Why not? Good question...

There are many aspects of MPE in Bitwig that are quietly powerful, flexible and fast due to the integrated nature of Bitwig. For example, with Bitwig instruments, the modulators can be per voice. That is not possible in Live even with M4L. So every Bitwig instrument (including the Grid) has unlimited modulation per voice and fully integrated with MPE and voice stacking.

Then there are the selector devices and how they work with MPE, and the arpeggiator works smartly with MPE.

Live doesn’t even record midi channel data and Bitwig is doing interesting stuff far beyond that. Live is so far behind that there is no way they can catch up in any meaningful timeframe.

If MPE and live playing is a priority for someone, then Bitwig is freakin awesome!!
Can you repeat that please? I must have missed it the other 5000 times you said this (especially in Ableton Live threads) :P

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As I understand it from various responses from the Bitwig Devs (who were obviously one the Live devs!) Bitwig had to be 'built from the ground up' to do certain things that Live would have never been able to do without basically re-writing it from scratch.

The containers used for midi and audio 'clips' allow for certain things- they facilitate in clip editing and MPE and all sorts of other possibilities. Live wasn't built that way so may never get in clip editing etc but MPE may be possible eventually, but it won't be easy.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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SLiC wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:51 pm MPE may be possible eventually, but it won't be easy.
I see no reason why it wouldn't be. You can assign 16 midi tracks to a MPE instrument as it is. It's just clunky and awkward. Live would need to open up another type of MIDI track that essentially contained 16 midi tracks. It's not trivial, but it's not impossible. Making it as efficient or flexible as Bitwig or Reaper on the other hand might be hard, but elegantly containing what it can do now in a single MIDI track isn't. Anyway, this is all moot until Ableton does it.

I miss rewire in Bitwig though, it's sad that tech is going away, especially now that DAWs are not generally $500+ USD. Reaper rewires into Live, I didn't test it in Live, but in Digital Performer you can still access MPE in Reaper rewired, crazy stuff. You're using two sequencers at that point though, so it's far from perfect.

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machinesworking wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:21 pm
SLiC wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:51 pm MPE may be possible eventually, but it won't be easy.
I see no reason why it wouldn't be.
I'm just working on the theory if it was easy they would have done it already!

That said, everyone is screaming for more than 7 collections' which I am pretty sure 'is' easy, but they haven't done that either so.... :dog:
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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pdxindy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:34 pm
liquidsound wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:10 pm Why not... unless that’s makes you feel better :wink:
There is so much ahead of us that there is room for improvement and innovation.
Ableton may well do the unexpected.
Why not? Good question...

There are many aspects of MPE in Bitwig that are quietly powerful, flexible and fast due to the integrated nature of Bitwig. For example, with Bitwig instruments, the modulators can be per voice. That is not possible in Live even with M4L. So every Bitwig instrument (including the Grid) has unlimited modulation per voice and fully integrated with MPE and voice stacking.

Then there are the selector devices and how they work with MPE, and the arpeggiator works smartly with MPE.

Live doesn’t even record midi channel data and Bitwig is doing interesting stuff far beyond that. Live is so far behind that there is no way they can catch up in any meaningful timeframe.

If MPE and live playing is a priority for someone, then Bitwig is freakin awesome!!
You are for sure more experienced than me on MPE but those candies (which you generously handout) on Bitwig instruments are a waste of advertising since those instruments are really mediocre imo, and they may have got rescued by those features.
On the other hand, M4L has some devices, for free!, than can rival a paid upgrade of BWS when it comes to devices, just remember: free.

I’m not here to argue your immense loyalty to BWS but I use both, Live and BWS, and what you are asserting it’s not even close to justify a solid reason to leave Live, indeed here you see users going back or reconsidering Live as a great tool to use again.

Of course BWS successful users will disagree and so for Ableton users.
To me your reasoning is really polarized and keenly used in Ableton discussions. :tu:
MuLab-Reaper of course :D

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liquidsound wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:08 pmYou are for sure more experienced than me on MPE but those candies (which you generously handout) on Bitwig instruments are a waste of advertising since those instruments are really mediocre imo, and they may have got rescued by those features.
On the other hand, M4L has some devices, for free!, than can rival a paid upgrade of BWS when it comes to devices, just remember: free.
I haven't had any quality issue with any Bitwig instruments? Weird argument? M4L devices are amazing for sure, they come with a heavy CPU hit, but they're pretty awesome. The cut down AAS instruments in Suite are OK, but owning the originals I don't get it?

The Grid was just recently introduced, so IMO also a weird argument, M4L is just Max inside Live, so Max/MSP users have 25+ years of building stuff in Max. Outside of Live Max can do MPE even. Kind of a sad panda thing isn't it? Ableton need to address this. Personally I don't care if it's half as good as what Bitwig can do, probably the hold up though.

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machinesworking wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 pm
liquidsound wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:08 pmYou are for sure more experienced than me on MPE but those candies (which you generously handout) on Bitwig instruments are a waste of advertising since those instruments are really mediocre imo, and they may have got rescued by those features.
On the other hand, M4L has some devices, for free!, than can rival a paid upgrade of BWS when it comes to devices, just remember: free.
I haven't had any quality issue with any Bitwig instruments? Weird argument? M4L devices are amazing for sure, they come with a heavy CPU hit, but they're pretty awesome. The cut down AAS instruments in Suite are OK, but owning the originals I don't get it?

The Grid was just recently introduced, so IMO also a weird argument, M4L is just Max inside Live, so Max/MSP users have 25+ years of building stuff in Max. Outside of Live Max can do MPE even. Kind of a sad panda thing isn't it? Ableton need to address this. Personally I don't care if it's half as good as what Bitwig can do, probably the hold up though.
It’s ok if for you it’s all weird, that’s you.
Quality? No quality, but nothing special to use as a compelling reason to choose BWS vs Ableton or any other DAW.

CPU cost Is a personal choice such as using Diva or Lush 101 etc.
No weirdness there. Half as good for you can be good enough for others.
In MuLab I can build instruments and effects with their own interface and controls, in Ableton I just look into the world of free devices an find Amazing stuff way more essential then CPU consumption and mostly free or really fairly priced.
I’ve got M4L stuff that is really fantastic and it’s more useful than the poly.stacking.mody.etc. available in BWS.

I wish MuLab would have the modulation access system of BWS because on that side of the equation BWS is probably w/o competition for the long run and man, it’s implemented at its finest.
I can spice up my eq is seconds :love:

Yes, LFO in Ableton are CPU hungry but not in Modulat (bought after following another thread) and there I can use 100 of those and the CPU is effected as in BWS (I don’t know how they pull it off :o )

All in all it’s not weird but just the other side of your opinion. :D

The Next Live Update thread? No way.... :D :clap:
Last edited by liquidsound on Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
MuLab-Reaper of course :D

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I wish they add usable midi (files or patterns) preview with the selected instrument like in Cubase, S1, Reaper, etc. It speeds a lot the workflow when choosing a drums pattern among thousands that I have as a basis for my track. Other than that, I don't miss something essential really.

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liquidsound wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:08 pm
pdxindy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:34 pm
liquidsound wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:10 pm Why not... unless that’s makes you feel better :wink:
There is so much ahead of us that there is room for improvement and innovation.
Ableton may well do the unexpected.
Why not? Good question...

There are many aspects of MPE in Bitwig that are quietly powerful, flexible and fast due to the integrated nature of Bitwig. For example, with Bitwig instruments, the modulators can be per voice. That is not possible in Live even with M4L. So every Bitwig instrument (including the Grid) has unlimited modulation per voice and fully integrated with MPE and voice stacking.

Then there are the selector devices and how they work with MPE, and the arpeggiator works smartly with MPE.

Live doesn’t even record midi channel data and Bitwig is doing interesting stuff far beyond that. Live is so far behind that there is no way they can catch up in any meaningful timeframe.

If MPE and live playing is a priority for someone, then Bitwig is freakin awesome!!
You are for sure more experienced than me on MPE but those candies (which you generously handout) on Bitwig instruments are a waste of advertising since those instruments are really mediocre imo, and they may have got rescued by those features.
On the other hand, M4L has some devices, for free!, than can rival a paid upgrade of BWS when it comes to devices, just remember: free.

I’m not here to argue your immense loyalty to BWS but I use both, Live and BWS, and what you are asserting it’s not even close to justify a solid reason to leave Live, indeed here you see users going back or reconsidering Live as a great tool to use again.

Of course BWS successful users will disagree and so for Ableton users.
To me your reasoning is really polarized and keenly used in Ableton discussions. :tu:
I’m not loyal to Bitwig... if something came along that worked better for me, I’d drop it in a sec... Software is just a tool.

If it weren’t for buying a Linnstrument, I would have stayed with Live. I like Live and it served me well until then. Once I had the Linnstrument, I needed an MPE capable host. I looked at Bitwig when it first came out, but it was far too buggy and feature incomplete at the time. So I bought Logic and kept my eye on Bitwig.

MPE is so enjoyable and useful for me, that MPE support is a major reason to use or not use a DAW. Obviously someone else may not have the slightest interest in MPE. That’s why it’s good to have a variety of tools available.

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Well, once you have invested in the MPE gear I see a really justified reason to pick the most functional DAW for its use.
By the time I'll get into MPE keyboards, Ableton will get Virtual Reality Clip Launcher :hihi:

I'll keep up to v4.0 and by then I may stay in the BWS gang or move on, but fortunately I have wonderful alternatives with bright horizons in sight.

The quasi 2 years on BWS has given me a lot of lateral thinking about sound design but the DAW itself it's not there yet, especially coming from long use of Live's minimalistic approach and and MuLab modularity.

I'm open to be surprised by Ableton since it is now challenged from every corner (good thing!) and everyone needs a wakeup call soon or later. :)
MuLab-Reaper of course :D

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liquidsound wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:07 am Well, once you have invested in the MPE gear I see a really justified reason to pick the most functional DAW for its use.
By the time I'll get into MPE keyboards, Ableton will get Virtual Reality Clip Launcher :hihi:
Heh...

I’ve got the Linnstrument, a Haken Continuum and an Osmose on the way. In case you hadn’t noticed, I’m kinda into MPE! Otherwise my DAW needs are pretty simple and I could be happy with most any DAW that was stable.

I feel grateful for the good use I got from Live. I’m glad though I didn’t wait for it to get MPE as it’s been years with nothing and I wouldn’t wait for it today either. Studio One just added some MPE capability but it is somewhat rudimentary. It will be an iterative process before it is well developed. I expect Live will be similar. Was the same with Bitwig too.

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The topic *cough cough* was; Ableton: Alive and Kicking?

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excuse me please wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:13 am The topic *cough cough* was; Ableton: Alive and Kicking?
I'm sure the devs are slaving away at their desks to deliver a new version ;) :P
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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resistent wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:15 am Let's fight about Live / BWS :hug:
Let's :clap: :hug: :)
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Anyway.
I like Ableton Live, but it still kinda betrays its origins as a performance instrument that has been dragged kicking and screaming into the DAW biosphere.
Stuff like exporting MIDI, Comping and maybe ARA implementation are long overdue. I would like to get to a point where I can use Live as a one stop shop for everything, instead of having to do vocal production in Logic, for example.
He tried to play bass.
www.jordanbrown.co.uk

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