All About MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE)

[anomandaris1]

bitwigs micro pitch support (which uses MPE, so on topic!) is pretty cool and i would consider better than remapping a controller. check out the video.

It's not better for several reasons - really good temperaments are too big, so you run out of midi notes and fingerings becomes too complex, so it's way easier to map scales to your pads/keys.
Historically western music is 12 (+few more in more advanced as construction instruments) selected pitches as a chain of perfect fifths out of bigger system - 1/4, or 1/5 and 1/6 comma meantone were the most popular, so these are equivalent of 12 out of 31, 43 or 55 equal. There are even some organs and harpsichords that are still preserved with more than 12 pitches (usually some black keys were splitted).
Here is an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GhAuZH6phs

[Romy Schmidt]

Interesting... It reminds me of the following.

Meet the Fokker 31-tones organ (1950). My professor advised Fokker with the construction of the 31-tone (microtonal) scale. It was interesting, he told me, but after some time composers realized that 12 tones are more than enough. He and his colleagues wrote just a few compositions for this organ. I studied the book Fokker wrote about the microtonal system, but I forgot all about it. Most composition students nowadays don't even know it exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmGhF32ulKc

[Noumena]

bitwigs micro pitch support (which uses MPE, so on topic!) is pretty cool and i would consider better than remapping a controller. check out the video.

It's not better for several reasons - really good temperaments are too big, so you run out of midi notes and fingerings becomes too complex, so it's way easier to map scales to your pads/keys.
Historically western music is 12 (+few more in more advanced as construction instruments) selected pitches as a chain of perfect fifths out of bigger system - 1/4, or 1/5 and 1/6 comma meantone were the most popular, so these are equivalent of 12 out of 31, 43 or 55 equal. There are even some organs and harpsichords that are still preserved with more than 12 pitches (usually some black keys were splitted).
Here is an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GhAuZH6phs

it is possible to do quarter tone or other equally tempered scales with 12+ tones per octave with the micro tune plugin.

also you can use key switches in bitwig to switch between instrument or note fx racks. this would allow you to have multiple scales available at the same time via switching. alternately you could have different pitches or ranges of pitches go to different racks w different scales defined for 12+ tone scales with min equal temperament.

i've done just intonation with both switches and ranges. i'm frankly not sure how remapping of a devices keys would solve the issue... unless are you suggesting that the instrument itself would send a base note + pitch bend amount on key on? an interesting idea if so. Midi Translator could probably do that running in between the controller and the DAW. In any case it's still a positive side effect of MPE that any of these solutions can be implemented.

[anomandaris1]

it is possible to do quarter tone or other equally tempered scales with 12+ tones per octave with the micro tune plugin.

also you can use key switches in bitwig to switch between instrument or note fx racks. this would allow you to have multiple scales available at the same time via switching. alternately you could have different pitches or ranges of pitches go to different racks w different scales defined for 12+ tone scales with min equal temperament.

i've done just intonation with both switches and ranges. i'm frankly not sure how remapping of a devices keys would solve the issue... unless are you suggesting that the instrument itself would send a base note + pitch bend amount on key on? an interesting idea if so. Midi Translator could probably do that running in between the controller and the DAW. In any case it's still a positive side effect of MPE that any of these solutions can be implemented.

I am sorry, but all this stuff is really off-topic, I don't know how even we got in microtonality from MPE. It's always better to use good vsti with scala/tun file than such limited tools like bitwig's micropitch (which doesn't support unequal tunings)- Bitwig is bad also for another reason for microtonality -> you don't have custom piano roll note names, so good luck editing (if you used the workaround for getting bigger equal temperaments) something that you started like some time ago.
Linnstrument (the bigger version) is one of the few large boards that is affordable, too bad it's not simple to reprogram to have custom patterns for playing (there are many alternative fingerings and layouts even for 12 equal that are interesting to explore on such instruments).
I wonder, if when most DAWs implement Midi2.0 (along MPE, which is included in it, of course), will they also give the option to have more than 128 midi notes.

[Noumena]

agreed that it is off topic, however Bitwig does support unequal tunings, just not unequal tunings of more than 12 tones. MPE is on topic as it allows microtonality to be handled outside a vsti if it supports MPE.

[WasteLand]

there is new MPE capable synth, it was already there, but has now a full MPE implementation, including what roli calls lift; or release velocity (does the sensel morph has that by the way?);

the vast dynamics vaporizer2

https://www.vast-dynamics.com/?q=vaporizer2_313

there is also demonstration vid, but it is already outdated, MPE enabled + pitchbend can be stored per preset, and the quite interesting implementation of lift, or release velocity. makes lift a very functional effect (it already was). vaporizer2 has curves, so you can smooth out pressure for instance.

also this year; tracktion biotek2 got full MPE support, you only see it, when you have it (demo or bought..). no info on the website about it.

i did never the notice the release notes, that are only shown in the installer, for biotek2, but it helps to understand how MPE is implemented in biotek2:

V2.1.5
- Added MPE Support. Quick how-to:
- Activate MPE in the Global Menu. This is a global switch that is saved in the
preferences.
- On the Instrument Edit page there are three new buttons that add MPE to an
instrument quickly and quite effectively:
- "Activate MPE On All Layers" activates MPE on each Sound Layer of the loaded
Instrument.
- "Activate 'MPE Ch Press To Ring X' On All Layers" and "Activate 'MPE Timbre
To Ring Y' On All Layers" route pressure to the X axis of the Ring Pad and the
Y position of a note to the Y axis of the Ring Pad.
Now you can play notes or chords with MPE. Aftertouch modulates a note as if you
would have moved the Ring Pad dot on the X axis, changing the Y direction of the
played note modulates it as if you had moved the Ring Pad dot on the Y axis.
Note that the dot doesn't move on the user interface. This wouldn't work since it
is a polyphonic modulation so every note has a different X/Y position.

You can also set up your own MPE modulations: On the "Sources 1" panel you find a
new section called "MPE" where you can set up the MPE-to-Ring-X and MPE-to-Ring-Y modulation individually for each Sound Layer.

For fine-grained MPE modulation independent from the Ring Pad, use the "Ch Press"
Assign button and the "Timbre" Assign button. With those, you can assign these
polyphonic modulations to any continuous parameter of BioTek 2.
If you feel that a different response curve would work better, use one of the
Modifiers to alter the input. You would set it up so that source one would be
either "Ch Press" or "Timbre" and as an operation, you would use e.g. Switch,
LinExp, LinLog, Quadratic, Cubic, Step, Reverse, Threshold, Saturate, Filter,
Lag or Ramp. Then you would assign this to any number of destination parameters.
----------------------

Release Velocity:
I assume it is the same as what Roli calls "lift". The official MIDI terminology however is "Release Velocity".

[lalo]

Hi all, thanks for the great learning resource here.
I'm quite a long term MPE user (mostly using Seaboard Blocks).
I'm trying to figure out how to build a device (with Max4Live to be used with Ableton Live and with JSFX to be used with Reaper or other VST supporting Host with the VST JSFX plugin, but i can do a JUCE VST too) that can use MPE data to trigger different drums/percussion sound and use all the five MPE dimensions to control different sound parameters for every percussion/drums sound.
So basically the main problem is the way MPE assign MIDI channel to different notes and to all the relevant controllers "linked" to those notes. I'd need to circumvent this mechanism and find a way to assign always the same MIDI channel to the same note. For example I could use all the "white" notes from C1 to D3 (so 16 notes) to trigger 16 different drums/percussion sounds. So i'd need that C1 and all its linked controllers (for velocity on/off is trivial but for aftertouch, pitch and slide CC74 is not) are always on MIDI channel 1, D1 on MIDI chan. 2, E1 on MIDI chan. 3 and so on. I'm trying to conceptually make the whole thing work and is all about correct event handling and conditional operations to route al the data to the correct destination. Here's a solution by a guy nick-named Soulgook and it's based on some third party VST in Reaper http://soulgook.com/2018/12/04/mpe-drum ... mplate-v1/

any idea, suggestion from MPE experts?

[pnyboer]

Vaporizer2 looks impressive. Really deep sound design possibilities for well less than $100. I'm definitely curious about that. Another new MPE software is Newfangled Audio Generate and the free, little cousin Pedulate - I'm hoping to get a video out of that soon.

[WasteLand]

Hi all, thanks for the great learning resource here.
I'm quite a long term MPE user (mostly using Seaboard Blocks).
I'm trying to figure out how to build a device (with Max4Live to be used with Ableton Live and with JSFX to be used with Reaper or other VST supporting Host with the VST JSFX plugin, but i can do a JUCE VST too) that can use MPE data to trigger different drums/percussion sound and use all the five MPE dimensions to control different sound parameters for every percussion/drums sound.
So basically the main problem is the way MPE assign MIDI channel to different notes and to all the relevant controllers "linked" to those notes. I'd need to circumvent this mechanism and find a way to assign always the same MIDI channel to the same note. For example I could use all the "white" notes from C1 to D3 (so 16 notes) to trigger 16 different drums/percussion sounds. So i'd need that C1 and all its linked controllers (for velocity on/off is trivial but for aftertouch, pitch and slide CC74 is not) are always on MIDI channel 1, D1 on MIDI chan. 2, E1 on MIDI chan. 3 and so on. I'm trying to conceptually make the whole thing work and is all about correct event handling and conditional operations to route al the data to the correct destination. Here's a solution by a guy nick-named Soulgook and it's based on some third party VST in Reaper http://soulgook.com/2018/12/04/mpe-drum ... mplate-v1/

any idea, suggestion from MPE experts?

i am nót a MPE expert. but you can make apps for roli. they are made in.. JUCE...
at isotonik, you can buy some apps (bought them, great).

for instance their is also a free app. (shall look into it how it is called, no roli connected, i am not in my studio)

https://juce.com/discover/stories/devel ... i-hardware

but it seems only for the lightpad M, which i have.

not helping you that much i am afraid.

(and i wish i had my C and C++ skills back again, too long ago. and no time.. although reading for an hour, many things came back very quick. but still...)

Vaporizer2 looks impressive. Really deep sound design possibilities for well less than $100. I'm definitely curious about that. Another new MPE software is Newfangled Audio Generate and the free, little cousin Pedulate - I'm hoping to get a video out of that soon.

well, vaporizer2 even less than $60....

yes generate, i forgot, i have only pendulate. but it generate is MPE, and every MPE user, will buy any MPE synth... but i didn't. still like to see the video, perhaps i am missing something.

also voltage modular is fully MPE capable, making my own patches for it, it has no release velocity or 'lift' connection. and even for monophonic modules, via a simple template/cabinet, i made it also public, even if it is simple.
even a template that can be extended, to use multiple MPE devices, indepent of eachother.

2 or 3 MPE controllers that "control" one "synth", yes a modular synth.

i come to think of it now, can it be done in voltage modular? there is a midi out module, from a third party developer, ow that is for hardware. i must check it.

maybe it is possible with logic modules, in voltage modular. that the pitch determines which "voice" is 1 or 2, etc. must be possible.

softube modular like (also MPE). take 4 voices, second voice through another filter, for example, or the same with different settings. simple example.

will try the next days, to contact a developer, that has a MPE block for reaktor. perhaps it can already be used that way, but perhaps all in one, it is now only one voice. with some building blocks you can do it i think, but or a lack the insight, or it will be difficult.

and then we come to the first "quote", or post i react to:

MPE is quite powerfull, but some things, very obvious things are missing. what was it? i am missing it too now

yes a sort of split mode. but also the synths must react to it. MPE is in a way limited, because all the keys (the quantized way) control a synth, or modular in the same way.

and of course; MPE uses normal velocity (was always per note) CC i mean, as note on/off (not CC..),
aftertouch that is according the midi spec the term for polyphonic aftertouch, many developers, of hardware and software use different terms, and beside MPE, aftertouch is always meant to be: channel pressure.
and channel pressure, MPE uses.
timbre is CC74, which is tight to cutoff.

of course you can use pressure, slide (timbre), glide for other modulations.

in voltage modular you can do what you want. even split. (i must take a look at logic modules, now the cabinets are round-robin, so not that of a split.)

but no split.

am i wrong?

[Noumena]

you are wrong about quite a few things in that post, yes.

splits are handled in mpe just the same way as regular midi: downstream by the daw or the instrument. in bitwig you'd use note selector racks.

velocity, release velocity, polyphonic at and cc74 are transmitted on a channel per note nothing special besides that.

cc74 isn't tied to cutoff... all the parameters besides pitch are easy to map to many parameters. pitch can be too, but pitchbend is different than ccs so there may be more limitations.

i'm afraid that i don't understand what you mean by a lot of other things.

[pnyboer]

Hi all, thanks for the great learning resource here.
I'm quite a long term MPE user (mostly using Seaboard Blocks).
I'm trying to figure out how to build a device ....that can use MPE data to trigger different drums/percussion sound and use all the five MPE dimensions to control different sound parameters for every percussion/drums sound.
any idea, suggestion from MPE experts?

Perhaps MPE Zones would be useful?
https://docs.juce.com/master/tutorial_m ... ifications

[pnyboer]

Here's another video about using UVI falcon. This is one of the more complicated softwares to setup with MPE I have found, but it can also be really rewarding.
https://youtu.be/EV4jF9nSRdE

[WasteLand]

you are wrong about quite a few things in that post, yes.

splits are handled in mpe just the same way as regular midi: downstream by the daw or the instrument. in bitwig you'd use note selector racks.

velocity, release velocity, polyphonic at and cc74 are transmitted on a channel per note nothing special besides that.

cc74 isn't tied to cutoff... all the parameters besides pitch are easy to map to many parameters. pitch can be too, but pitchbend is different than ccs so there may be more limitations.

i'm afraid that i don't understand what you mean by a lot of other things.

splits; yes of course a daw. or instrument. have bitwig studio 3.2 (didn't fully use it yet, it acts up on my desktop, not anymore, after too much time troubleshooting, but note selector racks, thanks!).

and zones, i read the spec, did read about zones, but as i now see, to quicly. zones is a normal term for zones...
was too focused on global channel...

cc74 i meant in the midi spec. and of course all can be mapped to any parameters, cc74 to several for example. i do use of course al 5D, except glide (ow sometimes) to map not just cutoff of resonance, etc. but multiple paramters for instance to pressure or slide. works great, of course. there is no limit in that way.

i make my own patches by the way.

i was brainstorming, sorry. it wasn't clear. examples, and taking time to edit a post.. i must learn that. i tend to make notes, in posts for myself, it seems...

[Noumena]

Here's another video about using UVI falcon. This is one of the more complicated softwares to setup with MPE I have found, but it can also be really rewarding.
https://youtu.be/EV4jF9nSRdE

Truly useful video. I have to confess to never really understanding how to make this work until now... UVI has basically no docs for MPE. Thank you.

[Rivanni]

[
aftertouch that is according the midi spec the term for polyphonic aftertouch, many developers, of hardware and software use different terms, and beside MPE, aftertouch is always meant to be: channel pressure.

Aftertouch is not always polyphonic.
Polyphonic aftertouch is not the same as Channel pressure.
Pressure starts at zero and goes to the max value. Aftertouch does not start at zero but after a note is played, hence AFTERtouch. Most of the times this last touch is a jump in value instead of a gradually changing value like with pressure.