Don´t want to suppor thes Window sh... anymore. Change to Linux?

[glokraw]

As to security, a fresh linux install needs tripwire and snort or equivalents installed before going online, in order to establish a real frame-of-reference for verifying intrusions in critical spaces.

Not very musical, and most linux self-proclaimed security mavens have their own smokeburns on their ass
Cheers

[glokraw]

I also installed a linux-native instrument plugin last night, and when attempting to save a preset, experienced a total system lockup, so the penquins stagger back to the salt water, muttering
'wtf was that all about?' Sloppy programming is everywhere

[lunardigs]

This is going to continue to grate on me as long as the thread gets top-posted so I'm going to remark:
"proprietary drivers aren't necessary. The Linux kernel is the driver"
Proprietary drivers are necessary when they are. If the drivers to the audio interface I have do not install under Linux there is no Linux for me (not that there would be anyway because of a number of deal-killers). And one doubts it is with that kind of ideological emphasis. It's that kind of a difference. The difference brought to us by good drivers vs not-so-good can be enormous. So with no support at all for 'the Linux kernel is all' it looks a bit fanatical rather than persuasive. Just sayin'

Generally speaking, from the standpoint of a driver, I/O streaming is the extent of what's necessary to utilize a piece of hardware ... More could be said here, of course, but this is the most basic aspect.
Presently, a lot, if not most electronics are designed in a modular fashion, where generic components are used--and quasi-standards thereof. Along with this has come various ubiquity in drivers. The concept of Class Compliance is probably the best known effort toward this.
It not only serves the end-user for ease of use, but it serves designers and manufacturers in a similar way.

Meanwhile, Linux has basically worked this way all along. If you'd like characterize Linux's support of hardware, you might call it class compliant.
The prior model of proprietary drivers and the ideas thereof is what's seeing a decline.

Concerning daily Linux use though, drivers are hardly a stumbling block. You can always shop for Class Compliant stuff too, which, happily is quite common now days.
Remember, we have Apple to thank in large part for making Class Compliance a trend.

[jancivil]

That's very general where I mentioned a specific. Then some rhetoric "drivers are hardly a stumbling block" and lecturing me as though I never heard of class compliant. I was avoiding saying anything because this is exactly what I would expect, proselytizing.

here's the deal:

I shopped for the very lowest latency in the world, on a platform that's notoriously problematic, specifically a problem with audio interface drivers and their interaction with the OS, and after quite a search found something...

Presonus' copy: The Quantum driver utilizes the bus master Direct Memory Access (DMA) to transfer audio data directly to and from the main memory without using CPU processing and the overhead that would come with it. DMA supports 64-bit addressing on systems with 4 GB or more of RAM. A companion DMA engine was also implemented in the Quantum hardware to read digital audio data directly between the ADC/DAC and the computer memory, one sample at a time.

For maximum efficiency, samples are transferred from the Quantum DMA engine directly into driver memory as a 32-bit word to match the way the Quantum driver handles the audio. Where possible, audio samples are also transferred into driver memory in the exact order that the driver expects. This helps to avoid alignment problems and the like, allowing you to run your Quantum drivers at extremely low buffer settings without overtaxing your CPU.

As it happens, my latency is now what a pipe dream of low latency was say a year ago for me.
aaaaand it works on the two major platforms only. So, my guess panned out, it doesn't exist under Linux.
I'm not wrong. The statement 'proprietary drivers are not necessary [because the OS kernel *is* the driver]' is no truer than it was when I posted that. It may be true in some sense, but it doesn't support what I found at all. Linux is not doing this, specifically. I tend to doubt class complaint makes shite drivers equal to quality drivers through itself but this is not that interesting to need a debate, and I'm far from expert.

You aren't listening, but no real skin off of any part of me, enjoy whatever that does for you. I wouldn't try to persuade you against it, certainly or argue against the choice of Linux. Nor am I selling you this device. It's only that in certain specifics the statement is inadequate.

[lunardigs]

Well, I'm only trying to help here--for anyone reading. If you need the Presonus Quantum, then get after it.
As for others hoping to use Linux for pro audio, don't get a Quantum, get a class compliant interface.

Btw, DMA is an inherent ability of Thunderbolt, just like Firewire before it, PCI and now comes USB C.
As for those who want to use their Firewire interface with Linux, have a look here: http://ffado.org/

[glokraw]

here's the deal:

$599 and up? I can schedule an hour's hologram based lesson with Jimi Hendrix
for $499, and lose some of my fumble-fingeredness

Seriously, the Quantum is some beautiful hardware, and a bargain if considered at price-per-port, and componant quality. I use some low-rent Fender usb amps for guitar input, with Puppy Studio Linux RT kernels, without latency issues, but also without singers, drum mics etc to account for.

I saw a reddit where someone mentions a Tascam 16x08 usb unit was
well populated and getting really low latency, but I think most linux users are
in the 8-20 range once configured

latency-2-128-44100.png

A4-z3ta-FX.png

[Guenon]

Sorry, pal, but it's the other way around - you're the guy with the biased reply.
[...]
Anyone who chooses their OS first has got it arse-backwards. The first thing you do is identify those applications you need to do whatever it is you want to do.

Quoting these, as it all boils down to this, really. As you already know from my "biased" reply , I agree on that arse-backwardness, and that's why I described why I haven't run Linux as my main DAW, and still don't. Like I said, I don't want to add a layer of complexity in order to run something I need, and this is why I choose to use Windows on which those projects run rock solid all day and all week long.

What I wanted to emphasize, to add balance to the usual off-hand remarks and biased default claims (of which your post has its share as well), that a lot of that stuff actually isn't true. It's a trope of sorts, and the actual reality is somewhere in between, depending on one's working methods and skills in general. I wrote at length about what sort of toolset you can run - and if one is experienced in this audio/music stuff, it can be derived from there what kind of material and tasks you can do on such a system.

But make no mistake, once built it's extremely dependable at what it does, and works as a proper professional DAW system targeting those tasks, without any mucking about. It just works. For me, personally, it makes for a great portable secondary system with very good latency, and I was surprised at how superb the audio functionality actually is these days when keeping things native. This was my own takeaway from this, both with built-in interfaces and professional RME gear.

Alas, I can't keep some significant things I need native; running plugin fx occasionally here and there (or some specialized mastering/post stuff, and so on) via LinVST isn't a problem, and everything is as stable as on my Windows 10 systems, then. But to me, keeping some absolutely core elements in large projects, always on an abstracted layer like that, is a problem. And your chosen toolset doesn't run without a compatibility layer all over the place, so it's of course not a good alternative.

[imrae]

An issue with Bones' "features first, OS last" philosophy is that it misses the circular nature of the thing. Over time, people come to depend on features that their existing OS handles well: for Mac OS this could be aggregate devices in Core Audio, for Windows this could be a stack of exclusive plugins, and for Linux this could be the ease of scripting, a customised desktop environment or complex routing of audio and MIDI between applications with JACK. So if you only know one platform it is easy to think that it is the only option to have everything you "need".

[Guenon]

An issue with Bones' "features first, OS last" philosophy is that it misses the circular nature of the thing.

Yes, and that's why I personally encourage anyone interested in this and seeing enough of a connection with one's chosen tools (and, again, having appropriate skills in the first place, or the motivation and enjoyment to learn) to at least try building a secondary system like this , as it's so good for a lot of things. It goes without saying, if someone doesn't feel any interest whatsoever in doing something like this, then it's not for them. For me, there are a lot of things that interested and motivated me to give it a go this year.

In any case: if you have specific things to do in music/audio, especially if you're doing this professionally, it's very much "see what suits your workflow and assignments best, and use that" over anything else. Imo. So on that most essential level I do agree with him, and that's why I've currently chosen the path I did.

[BONES]

An issue with Bones' "features first, OS last" philosophy is that it misses the circular nature of the thing. Over time, people come to depend on features that their existing OS handles well: for Mac OS this could be aggregate devices in Core Audio, for Windows this could be a stack of exclusive plugins, and for Linux this could be the ease of scripting, a customised desktop environment or complex routing of audio and MIDI between applications with JACK.

Clutching at straws here. Those things are completely unimportant beyond making it easier/harder to get up and going, so might save you a few minutes every few years. To prioritise them would be stupid so it's not circular at all.

I gave Linux a red hot go over several years but I never reached a point where I felt it could be the only OS I had installed, which ultimately made it not worth having installed at all. The best thing I got out of it was an appreciation for Blender and, to a lesser extent, GIMP. The rest of it was a big, fat waste of time and money. Similarly, I have used macOS at work for a large part of the last 20 years and none of them have any features or functionality that would make me want to use one over the other. They all suck equally, for different reasons.

[lunardigs]

here's the deal:

$599 and up? I can schedule an hour's hologram based lesson with Jimi Hendrix
for $499, and lose some of my fumble-fingeredness

Seriously, the Quantum is some beautiful hardware, and a bargain if considered at price-per-port, and componant quality. I use some low-rent Fender usb amps for guitar input, with Puppy Studio Linux RT kernels, without latency issues, but also without singers, drum mics etc to account for.

I saw a reddit where someone mentions a Tascam 16x08 usb unit was
well populated and getting really low latency, but I think most linux users are
in the 8-20 range once configured

Screenshot_20200923_171019.jpg

On my desktop, I can reliably run my interface at 0.726ms.
That's using the generic snd-usb-audio Alsa driver.
I can do eight tracks of various stuff, with fx, including a couple 'divine mode' synths, master buss processing, plus a bit more.

However, with my laptop ... nope.
I can go as low as 5.8ms and have a fancy guitar rig, with some sampled drums and master buss processing, but there's little else I can practically do. Plus, I get some noticeable xruns.

This is with the same interface, an RME Fireface UFX (first gen), the snd-usb-audio driver, Fedora 32. The only real difference is the computer hardware.

[glokraw]

A shot in the dark, but have you tried disabling selinux on the laptop?
I've used Fedora a few times, pre 2018 or so, and always turned off selinux to improve audio performance.

https://www.tecmint.com/disable-selinux ... el-fedora/

(you probably know much more than I, on the topic )

,726 is really good, was that verified 'round-trip' latency?
Even if not, it's still very good. One of my kids has an RME of some sort,
and won't let me 'borrow' it
Cheers

[cleverr1]

If I was newish to this I wouldn't have any bias towards any hardware / o/s platform if it supported a fully featured DAW and is the best available for the price. To make that happen an o/s platform needs great interfaces with great drivers and support from a great DAW developer. Whatever the reason unless I'm missing something there's nothing Unix based (other than Mac itself) that can rival Mac or PC at present.

[imrae]

Those things are completely unimportant beyond making it easier/harder to get up and going, so might save you a few minutes every few years.

Those weren't complete lists. That time estimate is far too low. And, as far as I am aware, no amount of user fiddling will get usable aggregate devices on Windows.

To prioritise them would be stupid so it's not circular at all.

Yes BONES, the only conceivable reason that people might disagree with you is that they are being stupid

They all suck equally, for different reasons.

THIS WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT

[glokraw]

If I was newish to this I wouldn't have any bias towards any hardware / o/s platform if it supported a fully featured DAW and is the best available for the price. To make that happen an o/s platform needs great interfaces with great drivers and support from a great DAW developer. Whatever the reason unless I'm missing something there's nothing Unix based (other than Mac itself) that can rival Mac or PC at present.

You might be missing linux versions of Reaper , Harrison Mixbus, and Bitwig. You might be missing LinVst plugin wrapper that enables around 90% of non-dongled, sensibly registered windows plugins to run in linux daws. You might be missing wine-staging and wineasio, that enable running slightly more plugins and also many stand-alones in linux. You might be missing that U-he, PianoTeq, and discoDSP have linux versions of their very capable plugins. You might be missing a dozen excellent linux devs with a hundred excellent apps and plugins (at a very good price) And you might be missing some work/play environments that are very enjoyable, with lots of configurations.
And you might be missing command-lines and scripts created by linux users who enjoy creating and sharing ways to accomplish specialized tasks with more speed and precision than the mouse and touchy based interfaces offer. You might be missing out on ultimate control over your partitioning schemes and filesystem(s) and you might be missing out on some excellent security utilities, should security ever be needed.

Beginners, newish folks, people in dire economic situations, diehard recyclers, or those disgruntled with some aspect(s) of the win/mac duopoly for some reason(s) might prefer not
missing such things.

For those financially able, who are happily wed to and productive within the duopoly, your gear is fabulous, your music is wonderful, your insights unassailable, and your future is bright. More power to you. More music from you.
Cheers