Multi-client ASIO

[Warmonger]

I've seen a few people mention that you can't have two (or more) ASIO apps open at the same time. If that's the case, then why can I have eXT, Tracktion, and Reason all open at the same time with no problems? I've got an Audigy 2, as well as my Epox 8rda+'s onboard audio. Not only do both of these consumer-level cards have ASIO, but I can use either, or both, with any combination of simultaneous apps. I'm using Creative's drivers for the Audigy, and some rather old version of the Nvidia reference drivers for the onboard sound.

How is it possible that these not-so-highly regarded sound cards support multi-client ASIO, when the high end cards can't do it?

I suppose it's possible that the cost of this feature is increased latency. That said, I can still run my Audigy at around 7ms, and the onboard at around 12ms. Not great, but for a total of $160 (including the peripheral benefits of having a motherboard ), I'd say that's a pretty good deal. I would feel totally ripped off buying a more expensive card if it couldn't support multiple clients.

[Scotrick]

well, as I understand it, and my understanding is VERY limited, and I hope others will jump in here... there's several different usages of this term 'client,'

for example, sure, you can have lots of programs open at once, but how many of them all play at the same time through the same audio interface?

some audio interfaces, I think, do allow this sort of thing, and that's mult-client, as I understand it....

and then the other way it's used is this:
sure, you have one audigy running, but let's say you want ANOTHER audigy running, controlled by the same driver as the first, so that you can add more inputs to your system, say for recording a fully mic'd drum kit or a whole horn section or whatever....

I don't know the audigy very well, but can you do that with their drivers?

and generally, most drivers don't allow this, especially the basic/cheap models...

but M-Audio, I think, does have this feature in their drivers, so that you can run mutliples of their interfaces...

RME

maybe MOTU?

and some others... but note that they're all the SAME driver set...

what would be true multi client would be if you could run several programs at once, several audio cards at once, and feed all of the inputs from the sound cards into yet ANOTHER program for final recording...

for example, in your case, can you use both the onboard sound inputs and the audigy sound inputs and record all of the inputs simultaneously into your sequencing or tracking software?

if so, then yeah, these inexpensive models have a neat trick going for them, if not, then no, you're just as non multi client as the rest of us

[Warmonger]

Well, I've seen people saying they have to close down Tracktion before opening eXT (for example), and saying that it's a problem with the ASIO spec. So no, I'm not talking about using multiple cards through one driver; I mean one sound card, with multiple hosts. And yeah, I can have the programs open, and play sound through them, simultaneously.

I should also mention that the kx project drivers for the Audigy series do *not* have this feature. Any time I would accidentally open Chainer and eXT standalone accidentally, I'd have to restart my computer to get my sound card working.

Anyway, I guess what I really wanted to ask in this thread is which sound cards are multi-client (as I'm using it)? More specifically, which cards have at least one driver that is? While I'm not currently in the market for a new card, I'd like to know which ones I can cross off my list when I do want to upgrade.

Hmm, maybe this shouldn't have been posted in the Hosts forum after all...

[headquest]

I think it may have to do with which program has control of the ASIO driver.

I'm assuming you are using ReWIre when you have Tracktion and Reason working together. Under the ReWire protocol, the ReWIre host program retains control of the audio drivers. In other words, Tracktion provides the audio output, and so retains the ASIO drivers. Reason's audio output is routed through Tracktion, so Reason is not interested in opening its own audio output.

With edXT simething similar is happening. This time my guess is that you are using eXT as a VST within Tracktion. Any VST routs its audio output into the host application - once again, Tracktion.

The time when you can get problems is if you try to use one program as a sample editor within another. If in Tracktion you designated eXT as your audio editor, for example (and I can't think why you would want to, but it would be an interesting experiment!) then you may get a conflict or even a crash. The two programs may well fight over the ASIO drivers and freeze.

I don't have eXT but I once tried to open Tracktion as an audio editor from within Live, and it crashed the system.

That said, some more advanced/expensive programmes have the ability to temporarily reassign control of the ASIO drivers to a designated audio editor. I'm speaking of Steinberg, whose Cubase sequencer can reassign ASIO driver control to WaveLab when you open it up. This is a neat workaround, and essential if you want to use those programmes together. Of course Steinberg created the ASIO code, so perhaps there are no surprises here!

The other thing to think on is that MOST specialist audio editing software doesn't use ASIO at all. THe core functionality of an audio editing package is to do with wave editing, and ASIO drivers are about reducing latency. In fact since WDM direvers came along, the need for ASIO drivers is now mostly restricted to reducing latency when recording using a VST instrument.

THe editor I use - Adobe Audition - does not use ASIO, so it can be opened as audio editor within any program without risk of conflict. This is a standard solution.

I hope this information answers your original question, and as I'm no expert I hope I'm not misleading you in any of my points, but I believe this is the explanation!

[Warmonger]

*sigh*
Believe me, I know the difference between using Rewire, inserting eXT as a filter in a track, and running 3 programs simultaneously, independent of each other. I started Reason before Tracktion before eXT standalone. Notice how I mentioned using eXT standalone in my other post? And before you say it, yes, I'm sure it's ASIO in both programs, and not a combination of ASIO and DX.

[ericj23]

i have had 3 sound cards - yamaha, emua nd m-audio

all performed (i think) exactly as described - which high end cards are you moaning about ?

[Warmonger]

I've just heard a fair number of people who say that it can't be done, and I just want to know what cards they're using. headquest here obviously can't do it, and I'm pretty sure Lunch Money can't either.

By high end, I don't mean anything particularly exclusive. I just mean cards intended for the pro market, as opposed to consumer oriented cards like mine.

[Home Studio 87]

RME Multiface : 9 Stereo Out with 9 different program (Cubase Samplitude Reason Melodyne etc...) all with asio !

[Lunch Money]

Correct, I can't do it. As far as I know, ASIO4ALL merely spoofs ASIO, and isn't a true ASIO driver. If I'm not mistaken, it just serves as a go-between for Direct Media protocols, which might mean that it'd be possible for it to work alongside another ASIO device...?

I could be way off there, and I don't have any other soundcards installed anymore (I guess I could enable my on-board) to test it out. What I DO know is this:

I cannot USE my Audiophile in both eXT and Tracktion at the same time, even if the programs run. They simply cannot share the driver. If it's being used in one, it won't initialize in the other.

HOWEVER, if I add any other Delta soundcard to my machine, I will be able to use it, because the Delta drivers effectively treat the separate soundcards as though they were ONE.

Warmonger-- what ASIO driver are you using for the on-board sound? If it's ASIO4All, then what I said in my original paragraph above might help shed light on the mystery. I have to repeat, though-- I haven't done any new research, and am just repeating something I may have heard somewhere. References and proof not available.

Greg

[Warmonger]

The nForce2 reference drivers include an ASIO driver, and that's what I'm using, not the ASIO4all driver. And like I said, it does work with multiple hosts running at the same time, as does my Audigy. I could have both running at the same time too, although I don't have enough working speaker ins to use them at the same time, nor would I want to (since the nForce audio is much more bass heavy, and has a much higher noise floor).

I've tried both ASIO2ks and ASIO4all on my dad's laptop. Neither of them works with Tracktion. Chainer and eXT are fine when running separately. If I try to use ASIO2ks with both at the same time, it never works, and sometime crashes. ASIO4all keeps working in the first app, not in the second, but it doesn't crash. Looks like I'll be ditching ASIO2ks then.

I've checked M-Audio's page, and they mention having multiple cards controlled through one driver. I guess it's a nice feature to have, but not what I'm looking for.

[redhanded97]

Interesting. I am using ASIO on an Audigy 2ZS and in Sonar 3.0, in the options->audio->advanced dialog, it has a check box which is called "share drivers with other programs". Doesn't seem to be card dependant...Am I off base here?

[jens]

Warmonger,

it works like this:

you have a soundcard with (say) two physical-outs (one stereo) but the asio-driver tells the asio-compatible host: 'look mate, I'm the driver for this soundcard and it has eight physical outputs - so which outputs do you want to chose?' and then the asio compatible host tells the driver 'I only need the first two' - now there's six outputs left which you can use for other applications. The driver then routes the different asio-outputs all to the same physical stereo-output.
- that's it (basically) - it's a neat trick.

My Echo Mia can do it for example - I know that the kx-driver can do it as well (if configured correctly )
- I only didn't know that Creative's driver for the Audigy can do it as well

[jens]

b.t.w.: with 'multi-client' people could also mean: using more than one asio-compatible soundcard at the same time. - The asio-specs don't allow this but againthere's a trick: WDM allows using more than one-soundcard at the same time and the new asio4all beta2 driver accesses the soundcard via wdm and then corresponds between the wdm-driver and the asio compatible-host (theoretically) allowing you to use an unlimited number of wdm-compatible soundcards in your asio-compatible host

[nuisance sonore]

b.t.w.: with 'multi-client' people could also mean: using more than one asio-compatible soundcard at the same time. - The asio-specs don't allow this but againthere's a trick: WDM allows using more than one-soundcard at the same time and the new asio4all beta2 driver accesses the soundcard via wdm and then corresponds between the wdm-driver and the asio compatible-host (theoretically) allowing you to use an unlimited number of wdm-compatible soundcards in your asio-compatible host

Ok, but how do you synch 2 cards?

[headquest]

*sigh*
Believe me, I know the difference between using Rewire, inserting eXT as a filter in a track, and running 3 programs simultaneously, independent of each other. I started Reason before Tracktion before eXT standalone. Notice how I mentioned using eXT standalone in my other post? And before you say it, yes, I'm sure it's ASIO in both programs, and not a combination of ASIO and DX.

OK warmonger, sorry I tried to help.

I think that you will find that different software does behave differently in its wilingness to share drivers though. There has been lots of discussion about this over on the Ableton website, and also on the Adobe website (where there has been debate about whether people would like Audition to have ASIo drivers in its next update... there is a good case for it NOT having ASIO)