Selecting a long-term, high-quality Granular/sound design instrument

[E_Anderson]

Hello and thank you! 10/19 edit: As it turns out, I'm probably just going to explore the kilohearts subscription. I am very confident Granular is coming to Phase Plant sometime in the future, and it is monstrously deep even just as a synth/sampler without granular, and until then, for granular I currently own Padshop2; it is just that I noticed the grain length parameter of Padshop is tied to grain rate, in such a way that a high grain-generation rate of long grains is impossible, but it is not impossible to get great sounds out of it nonetheless. Between Padshop2; Harmor; Phase Plant and Patcher; and all the re-sampling and re-granulizing, I don't think I should probably run into any significant sonic obstacle requiring different software for some time... besides maybe some spectral resonators... and Sound Particles, and though I still haven’t sat down to explore Crusher-X yet, I am confident I’ll be swayed to put some money aside for it when I can.

Kontakt has me at a pause: I will be purchasing Kontakt as soon as I am able to crossgrade, hopefully this November, as I will likely be requiring it for string/brass libraries and orchestral/world percussion samples. I planned on using Kontakt as merely a sample library manager, but here's the kicker: it has synthesis tools built into it and a huge underbelly I'm presently a little ignorant about.

Is it realistic to use Kontakt as an instrument for granular, loop-crossfading and wavescanning? Or should I leave that to a synthesizer for workflow purposes? (Or use Kontakt and save a "granular template" for easy-access, if the Kontakt granular engine is actually as good as something like Falcon's, or Rapid's, etc?)

Here are the synthesizers I've narrowed myself down to:

- Falcon
- Parawave Rapid
- VPS Avenger
- Pigments2
- I'm looking back into Crusher-X...

The questions I've had trouble answering are: (thanks Simon for answering just about everything)
- Are Falcon's granular oscillators capable of playing 50+ voices simultaneously per grain stream, like Pigments is capable of producing 264, Avenger 200 per osc, etc?
- Rapid's demo, at least, is limited to its browser for loading samples. Can it handle drag-and-drop in the non-demo?
- Assuming one can actually accomplish granular in Kontakt, can it be as powerful as the other options here? Can it be even more powerful!?
- Probably more questions incoming about Crusher-X

I'm interested in the realms of sounds and design occupied by Simon Stockhausen and Hans Zimmer. I'm an FL20 user with Harmor/Padshop2 who isn't into making very synthy-sounding music, and I'm relatively comfortable with the use of FL's Patcher, and I'm also more than likely going to find a way to afford Phase Plant soon; so except for Feedback Machine, the possibility of a superior Granular instrument, and whatever "superior sound quality" Falcon possesses, I may have talked myself out of Falcon, as I'm not sure if there's anything it can provide that Patcher + VSTs + Harmor/Padshop + whatever granular synth and some Kontakt scripting can't. (wait... Falcon has scripting, too, and it's easier apparently - but I'm already buying Kontakt...) I'm more than open to anyone proving me wrong. The sole reason I'm not just using Padshop for granular is because the Grain Duration parameter appears to be tied to grain length under the hood, making the 50/200 voice 1s-grain clouds impossible. But the fact that I have this and Harmor, with reverb, some delays, some creativity, you know... Yeah, maybe I have a little granular GAS going on. I swear they're my only plugins!

I'm not sure if I should be taking Kontakt into account here, I hear scripting is involved for granular and some of the cooler sample-mangling stuff. But if it's good, I might not mind. I've talked myself out of Reaktor, but if I can achieve something similar in Kontakt, that might be really fun. Anyone with input or experience is more than welcome to weigh in.

I've sent a message to Kilohearts about granular oscillators on Phase Plant. Thanks Simon for the link.

Thanks for your help, and my apologies for the verbosity.

[Sampleconstruct]

Hi, it's Simon here.

The questions I've had trouble answering are:
- Exactly how many simultaneos grains and at what length is Falcon capable of generating?

In the multi-granular oscillator you have up to 8 grain streams, max length is 1 second.

- How is Falcon's visual feedback for grains?

Non existent, you just see the playhead of each grain stream.

- Can Falcon's sampling oscillators handle drag-and-drop?

Yes.

- I assume Falcon's "Playback direction" button can be modulated on/off to imitate directional ratio knobs on other synths

Yes.

- Can Avenger's grain envelope shapes be adjusted beyond the shape presets?

No.

- Can I drag a slice of audio from an audio editor (FL Edison) into any of these? (Besides Avenger, which I can, and Pigments, which... can't. Neither can Padshop)

I don't think so, you have to save them out first.

- ... forgive me. Is Falcon the best-sounding and best-equipped (re: parameters) granular instrument? (Besides Crusher-X - I don't think it's going to work with me, especially as I am after a synthesis/sampling instrument and not an effect)

- It's very good for sure, HALion/Padshop also have a very good sounding granular engine with up to 8 grain streams, Avenger and Pigments have 1 grain stream. Crusher-X is the king/queen and you can use it as a Midi-controlled synthesizer, not only as an effect.

If anyone can direct me to a place where I can ask the developers at Kilohearts if they are planning on adding a Granular oscillator type in Phase Plant, I would appreciate it, as if they add it soon enough, I might hold off and just buy Phase Plant alone.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kilohearts

[E_Anderson]

Hi, it's Simon here.

Wow, Simon, thank you so much for this immensely helpful answering of about every question I have. I'll read the crusher-X manual to help me out with the demo and see how it feels/compares.

Inspired by your content, I purchased Padshop2 a week ago and have been having a lot of fun with multiple playheads + granular, something(s) Harmor can't do, it just seems that adjusting "grain duration" also reduces grain length, so the faster-rate + longer-length grain clouds which seem easily possible in the other synths don't seem possible in the same way. I hope I'm overlooking something, or that these kinds of sounds are possible with shorter lengths+higher rates if I was a little better at it + applied some post-processing.

Thanks for sharing your art and inspiring me with your music and sound design. Really appreciate your helpful reply. I'm containing myself a bit.

As a P.S., I'd really enjoy seeing/hearing what you'd do with Harmor or your thoughts on using it if you have. I find the additive engine can produce some really interesting timbres, and the resynthesis tab in Image mode can produce envelope-versions of the overtones of a sound in "Image Selected Column" editor, which can then be copied and used as filter shapes or local/global EQ shapes... which can be interesting.

[Sampleconstruct]

As I'm on Mac, Harmor has never been an option otherwise I would have been all over it.

[Mirko R.]

- Rapid's demo, at least, is limited to its browser for loading samples. Can it handle drag-and-drop in the non-demo?

Yes. But first you have to add a new Library in the Osc-Browser. Just open the Osc-Browser and at the bottom-left you can click on "Library" and then "New...".

Edit: Btw.

[gondii]

I've sent a message to Kilohearts about granular oscillators on Phase Plant. Thanks Simon for the link.

the discord server is also a good place to talk to the devs

[nachenko]

Seems you,be narrowed down the list, but this one usually goes under the radar and its worth a look. FRMS by Imaginando.

https://www.imaginando.pt/products/frms ... ynthesizer

[pdxindy]

My favorite granular synth for soundscape stuff is an iOS synth called Borderlands. Obviously it needs an iPad or iPad Pro.

It is rather different in concept (besides using grains). It does not play by midi, so if someone is looking to make presets for playing melodies via a midi keyboard this aint it. But for pads/drones/textures it is far more fun than anything else I have tried.

It is so hands on, immediate and powerful. It is an entirely different level of fun exploration. I like it so much that I consider it worth the cost of an iPad Pro just to have Borderlands. I've mostly stopped using VST granular synths as they feel so tedious in comparison.

[Neon Breath]

Give SpaceCraft a try, it’s also a rather different granular synth with a unique approach & workflow. (Available both IOS & desktop)

[VariKusBrainZ]

I personally love the Fruity Granulizer even though I have most of the VST granular plugins

[muki]

an iOS synth called Borderlands.

+1

[E_Anderson]

Does anyone have anything to mention about granular/sample mangling inside of Kontakt? I should probably just google it and start seeing what's what.

For now, the only certainty is that I am going to continue experimenting with Padshop. For what it lacks in dense, long-duration grain clouds, it makes up for with the smoothness and of the spectral oscillator and a lot of power in the short grain-duration and multi-playhead part of granularity. If not clouds, then certainly brooding and cinematic, at times machinistic or textural and organic sounds. I am very happy with this as an instrument of its own.

I purchased the khs subscription this afternoon, and I have to say, Phase Plant is absolutely ludicrous and sets the par for depth, a synth I feel totally comfortable investing in for the long-term. Hopefully it makes moves to adopt drag-and-drop for audio, as well as granular. The subscription frees up enough immediate funding and covers so many synthesis bases that a dedicated Granular powerhouse like Crusher-X may actually fill a more balanced space in my toolkit. (And also, perhaps Kontakt/MDrummer/any economical world/orchestral percussion resources may make a better first investment, while I make use of the granular instruments I currently have access to).

Crusher-X, Rapid, Falcon and maybe Pigments are the only hangers on at this point. I don't think I could justify Avenger if I'm using Phase Plant, and the same goes for many others... Falcon I am now even more unsure about. I'm sure the scripting opens up an entirely new realm for Falcon however.

As I'm on Mac, Harmor has never been an option otherwise I would have been all over it.

Alas... I forget Harmor only runs in FL studio for Mac.

Fortunately, the PS2 spectral oscillator and resonators seem to do a lot of what I find exciting about Harmor (FFT filtering and additive resynthesis); there is definitely shared sonic territory between these, just with different flavors. Even for my my own sake I hope Harmor is finally released for Mac, to satisfy my curiosity. Watching your videos on kaleidoscope, moodal/SpecOps has always had me wondering what kind of magic the Harmor patchpool library would contain. One day, maybe.

Yes. But first you have to add a new Library in the Osc-Browser. Just open the Osc-Browser and at the bottom-left you can click on "Library" and then "New...".

Thanks. It would be nice to be able to drop audio in directly from an audio editor for spontaneity's sake... However, Rapid is looking quite interesting, the granular sounds really quite good and has been pretty fast to program. Lots I haven't explored about it yet.

the discord server is also a good place to talk to the devs

Thank you. I will see what I can make of it. Quite some fantastic software...

Seems you,be narrowed down the list, but this one usually goes under the radar and its worth a look. FRMS by Imaginando.

I would love to give it a try, unfortunately the demo has not been working for me for days. I've tried everything I know how to do as far as multiple installation attempts into different locations, folder-location in FL Studio, and it's not showing up in the DAW at all. I suppose at this point I'll just need to read the manual.

Give SpaceCraft a try, it’s also a rather different granular synth with a unique approach & workflow. (Available both IOS & desktop)

I wish I'd tried running the spacecraft demo before the Crusher-X demo, as now I'm on a time-crunch to learn a significant portion of Crusher-X in the next week or so. Spacecraft, iirc, is 90 days. W/e, I'll get started testing it in a few days.

[l33t4e]

This comes to mind https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason ... ents/grain

[Shabdahbriah]

This is another oldie, but was (imho) quite novel when released, and still available:

[GRUMP]

Concerning Halion: I chose this one. It has Disadvantages - but NI and UVI want to sell their Librarys resp. deliver an all in one Solution.

Their Tools are structured respectively - while HAL is very comfortable in File- and Patchmanagement, Naming and everything else that is daily DIY WORK.

Halion also sounds different, but Kontakt not worse.

Difficult Descision, but on 50% Sale HAL is advantageous.

Falcon is on my List, too - but I would not make an Exchange. Nothing Beats HALs Usability concerning daily Tasks.