New Pigments 2 Thread (On Topic Discussion Only, Please)

[Sampleconstruct]

Multiband compressors are absolutely necessary for certain types of sound. Handy to have them built in.

And in some synths these are available per polyphonic voice (e.g. Falcon).

[chagzuki]

Yep. Pigments is quite limited in terms of signal path options, but does certain things very well. A couple of extra routing options would really open up the architecture without making the synth more complex to use.

[Hink]

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

Dude.. people should never be banned for their opinion nor the way they write it (unless they attack somebody personally and insult them directly, over and over again). Other forums are not KvR. KvR is awesome and the moderators here are absolute legends. There's a very good reason we have some fantastic people with very interesting characters on these forums who have stuck around all these years (just look at that weirdo called Vurt! ).

BONES is perfectly entitled to his opinion and also perfectly entitled to utter them. He just says it all blatantly without filler. Personally I really like his style of writing, a lot. It's so refreshing when you know exactly what somebody thinks. People take offense too easily. If he says "No, you are wrong" doesn't mean that you are actually wrong.. it just means that in his opinion you are wrong.

In the case of compressors I'm very confident in my opinion and knowledge, thus have no problems saying that I think Bones is utterly wrong and that I also think he doesn't at all understand how it all fits together. I also happen to know with confidence that I'm an expert when it comes to programming synthesizers so my combined knowledge in this particular discussion is unquestionable. Thus Bones can say whatever he wants (and he does, which is awesome!) and it won't bother me one bit.

TY TY TY

The other day bones posted this

What is the problem with iLok? I think it works very well and is a good way to keep all your licenses organised. I wouldn't want to have a dongle to have to find a spare USB socket for but soft iLok is great. I wish more companies used it. So the problem isn't iLok, it's you.

we got this report

Another insult...I really don’t understand why you tolerate this kind of behavior from BONES but have been so quick to ban others...

Is this the threshold people want? This is getting out of hand, this gaslighting like in the report is absurd. Yes I am going to tolerate that particular type of behavior because I am not a hypocrite and have done it myself as have probably everyone else.

I had a few messages with bones a couple years ago, you know he told me that if I found a post objectionable to delete it, I have and he has never complained, he also was quite empathetic suggesting I had a lot of patience...other people get a post deleted and it's time to give ol' Hink his last joint, line him up against the wall and get justice for my perceived violations of free speech.

The fact is he does bring a lot to the table, before I was a mod we shared a lot about our common experiences in other areas. Like Meffy once said, you know what to expect with him, just ignore him if you dont want to deal with him. He joined in 2000, one of the OG's, he has a long history here as do many of us (long not being a dig), just curious...who would like to have the BONES from say ten years ago back? FTR he is far more understanding and easier to deal with than many that complain about him...but people just want to see him banned, see everyone banned.

BONES got banned, I'm thinking at least ten years ago (before I was a mod) and in fact I think that is why his location says what it does...if he gets over the top he knows the risks so please report it (but please be reasonable), I am privy to other conversations he has had with other mods...but if I go by the embellished threshold many would like BONES held to we'd be done shortly thereafter

The sad thing is statements like that report and the quote below suggest we are singling out whom to protect and whom to ban, anyone who thinks that of me or any other mod is not only really trying to gaslight us but is also just stirring the pot with bs...we are so quick to ban others...I loathe banning anyone besides sockpuppets, spammers and scammers and to make such a statement against us suggests a total lack of understanding toward the work we do put in every single day.

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

that is flaming and doesn't help matters at all, if you really wanted to send him a message to ignore BONES the proper way to do so qould be via PM...but this way everyone gets to see it, you get to flame BONES and the thread...what makes you think I should not hold you to the same standard as you want me to hold BONES to?

TY bmanic

[perpetual3]

Yeah, no need for the “...it’s you” part. Doesn’t contribute anything of value. Only serves to insult the other, and imply that they are somehow deficient.

[Hink]

[Neon Breath]

Title of the thread: New Pigments 2 Thread (On Topic Discussion Only, Please)

Well...

[buzz1]

If you can get passed the usual rather errr... upfront delivery style, BONES talks a lot of sense. And even if you don't often agree with him (like me), his sometimes alternative view can make you think a bit. I can recall many examples where having read one of his posts I have thought:- OK, thats an actually an angle worth considering.
People like him make forums interesting and useful.

[claudedefaren]

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

Dude.. people should never be banned for their opinion nor the way they write it (unless they attack somebody personally and insult them directly, over and over again). Other forums are not KvR. KvR is awesome and the moderators here are absolute legends. There's a very good reason we have some fantastic people with very interesting characters on these forums who have stuck around all these years (just look at that weirdo called Vurt! ).

BONES is perfectly entitled to his opinion and also perfectly entitled to utter them. He just says it all blatantly without filler. Personally I really like his style of writing, a lot. It's so refreshing when you know exactly what somebody thinks. People take offense too easily. If he says "No, you are wrong" doesn't mean that you are actually wrong.. it just means that in his opinion you are wrong.

In the case of compressors I'm very confident in my opinion and knowledge, thus have no problems saying that I think Bones is utterly wrong and that I also think he doesn't at all understand how it all fits together. I also happen to know with confidence that I'm an expert when it comes to programming synthesizers so my combined knowledge in this particular discussion is unquestionable. Thus Bones can say whatever he wants (and he does, which is awesome!) and it won't bother me one bit.

TY TY TY

The other day bones posted this

What is the problem with iLok? I think it works very well and is a good way to keep all your licenses organised. I wouldn't want to have a dongle to have to find a spare USB socket for but soft iLok is great. I wish more companies used it. So the problem isn't iLok, it's you.

we got this report

Another insult...I really don’t understand why you tolerate this kind of behavior from BONES but have been so quick to ban others...

Is this the threshold people want? This is getting out of hand, this gaslighting like in the report is absurd. Yes I am going to tolerate that particular type of behavior because I am not a hypocrite and have done it myself as have probably everyone else.

I had a few messages with bones a couple years ago, you know he told me that if I found a post objectionable to delete it, I have and he has never complained, he also was quite empathetic suggesting I had a lot of patience...other people get a post deleted and it's time to give ol' Hink his last joint, line him up against the wall and get justice for my perceived violations of free speech.

The fact is he does bring a lot to the table, before I was a mod we shared a lot about our common experiences in other areas. Like Meffy once said, you know what to expect with him, just ignore him if you dont want to deal with him. He joined in 2000, one of the OG's, he has a long history here as do many of us (long not being a dig), just curious...who would like to have the BONES from say ten years ago back? FTR he is far more understanding and easier to deal with than many that complain about him...but people just want to see him banned, see everyone banned.

BONES got banned, I'm thinking at least ten years ago (before I was a mod) and in fact I think that is why his location says what it does...if he gets over the top he knows the risks so please report it (but please be reasonable), I am privy to other conversations he has had with other mods...but if I go by the embellished threshold many would like BONES held to we'd be done shortly thereafter

The sad thing is statements like that report and the quote below suggest we are singling out whom to protect and whom to ban, anyone who thinks that of me or any other mod is not only really trying to gaslight us but is also just stirring the pot with bs...we are so quick to ban others...I loathe banning anyone besides sockpuppets, spammers and scammers and to make such a statement against us suggests a total lack of understanding toward the work we do put in every single day.

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

that is flaming and doesn't help matters at all, if you really wanted to send him a message to ignore BONES the proper way to do so qould be via PM...but this way everyone gets to see it, you get to flame BONES and the thread...what makes you think I should not hold you to the same standard as you want me to hold BONES to?

TY bmanic

Classic.

You don't hold Bones to any noticeable standard.

You allow this place to continue to run as an old boy's club, where members in your longstanding clique are free to bully, harass, and flame and demean others without repercussion, not to mention derail threads as soon as they start with endless one-liners and pointless single-emoticon replies.

I can't even count the number of times I've seen vurt, who bmanic mentioned above, do this — I don't think that such derailing is a bannable offense, but it's clear you give special treatment and are reluctant to do the job when it involves regulars in your off-topic circle-jerks.

That's not gaslighting; it's facts. Facts which one can easily verify with a quick stroll through Bones' post history.

Many users have complaints about Bones. That should tell you something. That's not pot-stirring.

You cherry pick from reports of Bones's posts to find an obviously absurd report when there are COUNTLESS examples of Bones attacking other users without provocation. That is purposefully misleading and insincere.

We're talking actual, personal attacks here. Not something like "Bones is always like that, just ignore him, anywhere else would have banned him" which is so plainly not an attack it's not even funny that you should attempt to draw a false equivalence there.

You're going to read this, get offended, and suspend/ban me because I'm calling you out on it, which would be unseemly behavior for a moderator, but par for the course here.

You're going to be inclined to say that I'm somehow worse than Bones — perhaps for posting that I was unenthused with Brian Clevinger's latest synth, perhaps for arguing with a moderator and "stirring the pot," perhaps for some other ridiculous reason. Traverse my post history and compare how many times I've blatantly and explicitly called someone an idiot with how many times Bones has. And then stop.

Just stop.

Stop giving him preferential treatment. He has flagrantly broken the rules here so many times it hurts my brain to think about: viewtopic.php?t=44705

If it's not actually against the rules to make personal attacks at other users, then please update the rules to reflect it.

By the way, it should be a pre-requisite that a moderator know what flaming is, and since you evidently don't, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)

And understanding what gaslighting is should be a prerequisite for anyone who hopes to wrongfully accuse a post report of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting (and again, that post report was totally bogus, but certainly not gaslighting — no post report could ever BE gaslighting)

Finally, Hink, as has been mentioned already, kudos on derailing this thread further with a completely unnecessary comment that could have been taken care of by PM

Okay, queue the usual clique with the mockery and downvotes!

[bmanic]

@claudedefaren

Dude.. you really have a sensitive little ego don't you?

It's not as BONES hasn't been warned multiple times and as Hink stated, banned before. He isn't exactly getting any preferential treatment as far as I can see but then again I'm not so worried about who mommy or daddy loves the most.

Should I get banned now too? Was that taking it too far? I'm so sorry mate.. so sorry. Hope you can recover from my evil harmful words.

Yeah, no need for the “...it’s you” part. Doesn’t contribute anything of value. Only serves to insult the other, and imply that they are somehow deficient.

The "it's you" part is completely relevant, from BONES point of view. Why on earth is this so damn difficult to understand? Other people aren't there to constantly please you and make you feel all happy in your fantasy unicorn land. The world is going extremely fast down the shitter exactly due to this extreme snowflake mentality of late. We arrive at a slippery slope very quickly. Where do we draw the line of what is considered unnecessary or unproductive communication if completely harmless words like "..it's you" are taken as offensive? Even if they imply that the other person is incompetent or whiny (which is perfectly possible that both implications were true in this case, who knows.. who cares!?).

You are the one who decides if whatever was said to you is worth taking to heart or not. Of course provided that it wasn't explicitly homophobic, racist or other clear cut cases of stepping over the line and being down right evil, then you have every right to be offended and even have the obligation of causing a ruckus. That's how we as a society should fight clear cases of evil. However, getting pissy about completely harmless words and getting faux offended by supposed implications in the subtext is on you and your own ego. It even causes real harm when it comes to fighting true cases of bigotry of any kind when all the lines that used to be extremely clear now get blurred by sillyness.

/rant

Ok, sorry for the off topic. Back to Pigments 2. I'll post a few audio examples of a few sounds I did last weekend to calm things down.

[Hink]

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

Dude.. people should never be banned for their opinion nor the way they write it (unless they attack somebody personally and insult them directly, over and over again). Other forums are not KvR. KvR is awesome and the moderators here are absolute legends. There's a very good reason we have some fantastic people with very interesting characters on these forums who have stuck around all these years (just look at that weirdo called Vurt! ).

BONES is perfectly entitled to his opinion and also perfectly entitled to utter them. He just says it all blatantly without filler. Personally I really like his style of writing, a lot. It's so refreshing when you know exactly what somebody thinks. People take offense too easily. If he says "No, you are wrong" doesn't mean that you are actually wrong.. it just means that in his opinion you are wrong.

In the case of compressors I'm very confident in my opinion and knowledge, thus have no problems saying that I think Bones is utterly wrong and that I also think he doesn't at all understand how it all fits together. I also happen to know with confidence that I'm an expert when it comes to programming synthesizers so my combined knowledge in this particular discussion is unquestionable. Thus Bones can say whatever he wants (and he does, which is awesome!) and it won't bother me one bit.

TY TY TY

The other day bones posted this

What is the problem with iLok? I think it works very well and is a good way to keep all your licenses organised. I wouldn't want to have a dongle to have to find a spare USB socket for but soft iLok is great. I wish more companies used it. So the problem isn't iLok, it's you.

we got this report

Another insult...I really don’t understand why you tolerate this kind of behavior from BONES but have been so quick to ban others...

Is this the threshold people want? This is getting out of hand, this gaslighting like in the report is absurd. Yes I am going to tolerate that particular type of behavior because I am not a hypocrite and have done it myself as have probably everyone else.

I had a few messages with bones a couple years ago, you know he told me that if I found a post objectionable to delete it, I have and he has never complained, he also was quite empathetic suggesting I had a lot of patience...other people get a post deleted and it's time to give ol' Hink his last joint, line him up against the wall and get justice for my perceived violations of free speech.

The fact is he does bring a lot to the table, before I was a mod we shared a lot about our common experiences in other areas. Like Meffy once said, you know what to expect with him, just ignore him if you dont want to deal with him. He joined in 2000, one of the OG's, he has a long history here as do many of us (long not being a dig), just curious...who would like to have the BONES from say ten years ago back? FTR he is far more understanding and easier to deal with than many that complain about him...but people just want to see him banned, see everyone banned.

BONES got banned, I'm thinking at least ten years ago (before I was a mod) and in fact I think that is why his location says what it does...if he gets over the top he knows the risks so please report it (but please be reasonable), I am privy to other conversations he has had with other mods...but if I go by the embellished threshold many would like BONES held to we'd be done shortly thereafter

The sad thing is statements like that report and the quote below suggest we are singling out whom to protect and whom to ban, anyone who thinks that of me or any other mod is not only really trying to gaslight us but is also just stirring the pot with bs...we are so quick to ban others...I loathe banning anyone besides sockpuppets, spammers and scammers and to make such a statement against us suggests a total lack of understanding toward the work we do put in every single day.

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

that is flaming and doesn't help matters at all, if you really wanted to send him a message to ignore BONES the proper way to do so qould be via PM...but this way everyone gets to see it, you get to flame BONES and the thread...what makes you think I should not hold you to the same standard as you want me to hold BONES to?

TY bmanic

Classic.

You don't hold Bones to any noticeable standard.

You allow this place to continue to run as an old boy's club, where members in your longstanding clique are free to bully, harass, and flame and demean others without repercussion, not to mention derail threads as soon as they start with endless one-liners and pointless single-emoticon replies.

I can't even count the number of times I've seen vurt, who bmanic mentioned above, do this — I don't think that such derailing is a bannable offense, but it's clear you give special treatment and are reluctant to do the job when it involves regulars in your off-topic circle-jerks.

That's not gaslighting; it's facts. Facts which one can easily verify with a quick stroll through Bones' post history.

Many users have complaints about Bones. That should tell you something. That's not pot-stirring.

You cherry pick from reports of Bones's posts to find an obviously absurd report when there are COUNTLESS examples of Bones attacking other users without provocation. That is purposefully misleading and insincere.

We're talking actual, personal attacks here. Not something like "Bones is always like that, just ignore him, anywhere else would have banned him" which is so plainly not an attack it's not even funny that you should attempt to draw a false equivalence there.

You're going to read this, get offended, and suspend/ban me because I'm calling you out on it, which would be unseemly behavior for a moderator, but par for the course here.

You're going to be inclined to say that I'm somehow worse than Bones — perhaps for posting that I was unenthused with Brian Clevinger's latest synth, perhaps for arguing with a moderator and "stirring the pot," perhaps for some other ridiculous reason. Traverse my post history and compare how many times I've blatantly and explicitly called someone an idiot with how many times Bones has. And then stop.

Just stop.

Stop giving him preferential treatment. He has flagrantly broken the rules here so many times it hurts my brain to think about: viewtopic.php?t=44705

If it's not actually against the rules to make personal attacks at other users, then please update the rules to reflect it.

By the way, it should be a pre-requisite that a moderator know what flaming is, and since you evidently don't, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)

And understanding what gaslighting is should be a prerequisite for anyone who hopes to wrongfully accuse a post report of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting (and again, that post report was totally bogus, but certainly not gaslighting — no post report could ever BE gaslighting)

Finally, Hink, as has been mentioned already, kudos on derailing this thread further with a completely unnecessary comment that could have been taken care of by PM

Okay, queue the usual clique with the mockery and downvotes!

so YOUR perceived issue with BONES is my fault...but that's not gaslighting?

[claudedefaren]

...

[claudedefaren]

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

Dude.. people should never be banned for their opinion nor the way they write it (unless they attack somebody personally and insult them directly, over and over again). Other forums are not KvR. KvR is awesome and the moderators here are absolute legends. There's a very good reason we have some fantastic people with very interesting characters on these forums who have stuck around all these years (just look at that weirdo called Vurt! ).

BONES is perfectly entitled to his opinion and also perfectly entitled to utter them. He just says it all blatantly without filler. Personally I really like his style of writing, a lot. It's so refreshing when you know exactly what somebody thinks. People take offense too easily. If he says "No, you are wrong" doesn't mean that you are actually wrong.. it just means that in his opinion you are wrong.

In the case of compressors I'm very confident in my opinion and knowledge, thus have no problems saying that I think Bones is utterly wrong and that I also think he doesn't at all understand how it all fits together. I also happen to know with confidence that I'm an expert when it comes to programming synthesizers so my combined knowledge in this particular discussion is unquestionable. Thus Bones can say whatever he wants (and he does, which is awesome!) and it won't bother me one bit.

TY TY TY

The other day bones posted this

What is the problem with iLok? I think it works very well and is a good way to keep all your licenses organised. I wouldn't want to have a dongle to have to find a spare USB socket for but soft iLok is great. I wish more companies used it. So the problem isn't iLok, it's you.

we got this report

Another insult...I really don’t understand why you tolerate this kind of behavior from BONES but have been so quick to ban others...

Is this the threshold people want? This is getting out of hand, this gaslighting like in the report is absurd. Yes I am going to tolerate that particular type of behavior because I am not a hypocrite and have done it myself as have probably everyone else.

I had a few messages with bones a couple years ago, you know he told me that if I found a post objectionable to delete it, I have and he has never complained, he also was quite empathetic suggesting I had a lot of patience...other people get a post deleted and it's time to give ol' Hink his last joint, line him up against the wall and get justice for my perceived violations of free speech.

The fact is he does bring a lot to the table, before I was a mod we shared a lot about our common experiences in other areas. Like Meffy once said, you know what to expect with him, just ignore him if you dont want to deal with him. He joined in 2000, one of the OG's, he has a long history here as do many of us (long not being a dig), just curious...who would like to have the BONES from say ten years ago back? FTR he is far more understanding and easier to deal with than many that complain about him...but people just want to see him banned, see everyone banned.

BONES got banned, I'm thinking at least ten years ago (before I was a mod) and in fact I think that is why his location says what it does...if he gets over the top he knows the risks so please report it (but please be reasonable), I am privy to other conversations he has had with other mods...but if I go by the embellished threshold many would like BONES held to we'd be done shortly thereafter

The sad thing is statements like that report and the quote below suggest we are singling out whom to protect and whom to ban, anyone who thinks that of me or any other mod is not only really trying to gaslight us but is also just stirring the pot with bs...we are so quick to ban others...I loathe banning anyone besides sockpuppets, spammers and scammers and to make such a statement against us suggests a total lack of understanding toward the work we do put in every single day.

He's always like this. Just ignore him. Any other forum would have banned him at this point.

that is flaming and doesn't help matters at all, if you really wanted to send him a message to ignore BONES the proper way to do so qould be via PM...but this way everyone gets to see it, you get to flame BONES and the thread...what makes you think I should not hold you to the same standard as you want me to hold BONES to?

TY bmanic

Classic.

You don't hold Bones to any noticeable standard.

You allow this place to continue to run as an old boy's club, where members in your longstanding clique are free to bully, harass, and flame and demean others without repercussion, not to mention derail threads as soon as they start with endless one-liners and pointless single-emoticon replies.

I can't even count the number of times I've seen vurt, who bmanic mentioned above, do this — I don't think that such derailing is a bannable offense, but it's clear you give special treatment and are reluctant to do the job when it involves regulars in your off-topic circle-jerks.

That's not gaslighting; it's facts. Facts which one can easily verify with a quick stroll through Bones' post history.

Many users have complaints about Bones. That should tell you something. That's not pot-stirring.

You cherry pick from reports of Bones's posts to find an obviously absurd report when there are COUNTLESS examples of Bones attacking other users without provocation. That is purposefully misleading and insincere.

We're talking actual, personal attacks here. Not something like "Bones is always like that, just ignore him, anywhere else would have banned him" which is so plainly not an attack it's not even funny that you should attempt to draw a false equivalence there.

You're going to read this, get offended, and suspend/ban me because I'm calling you out on it, which would be unseemly behavior for a moderator, but par for the course here.

You're going to be inclined to say that I'm somehow worse than Bones — perhaps for posting that I was unenthused with Brian Clevinger's latest synth, perhaps for arguing with a moderator and "stirring the pot," perhaps for some other ridiculous reason. Traverse my post history and compare how many times I've blatantly and explicitly called someone an idiot with how many times Bones has. And then stop.

Just stop.

Stop giving him preferential treatment. He has flagrantly broken the rules here so many times it hurts my brain to think about: viewtopic.php?t=44705

If it's not actually against the rules to make personal attacks at other users, then please update the rules to reflect it.

By the way, it should be a pre-requisite that a moderator know what flaming is, and since you evidently don't, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)

And understanding what gaslighting is should be a prerequisite for anyone who hopes to wrongfully accuse a post report of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting (and again, that post report was totally bogus, but certainly not gaslighting — no post report could ever BE gaslighting)

Finally, Hink, as has been mentioned already, kudos on derailing this thread further with a completely unnecessary comment that could have been taken care of by PM

Okay, queue the usual clique with the mockery and downvotes!

so YOUR perceived issue with BONES is my fault...but that's not gaslighting?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that I've accused you of Bones calling people an idiot? That isn't the case.

If you are truly concerned with my complaint I'm happy to expand on it via PM, as well as explain what gaslighting is and how it works. As has been stated, this is derailing the "On Topic Discussion Only, Please" Pigments thread.

[Sampleconstruct]

Errrrr, Pigments anybody? Coliflower, brussel sprouts?

[Hink]

No, you are trying to convince me that I'm not acting properly, there is something wrong with me and that caused the problem you perceive...that is gaslighting no matter how you look at it...and you sir are completely ignorant to what is really going on here...I get that your perception is your reality but the thruth is you are wrong. I'm sorry if you dont understand that, but you do not possess the information needed to make an unbiased judgement on that...it is as it appears to you and that's that in your mind so we have nothing further to discuss.

Meanwhile I wont do this in a PM because I have nothing to hide, it's important these points get made. I have been a mod for 4 years and a few days, I became a mod in Oct 2016 (gen mod, I was the mod of the DIY forum from the day Ben made it because it was my concept) and the first thing I realized is how much work there is here, how time consuming it is and I admired the mods even more because you see it's always our fault and every mod on the internet can tell you...we are treated like crap, we are not members, we are the problem no matter what and for some reason people think we can actually read every single post. That is sad that a few people act this way, but it happens in all walks of life...and yes you are right, I have friends here...so what? I am not entitled to friends? I am very good friends with Anx...Anx was very helpful to me in my time of need and he knows that I think the world of him as a friend...Dave...how many times have I suspended you?

So I reject your little rant and I'll keep doing the best job I can, you dream up whatever crap you want to say about me or my performance but when I close my eyes at night I know I made a positive difference I could for a forum that I am very proud to be a member of and to moderate...whether you agree or not wont change that, but if you dont see, cant see or refuse to see the whole picture than this goes no where.

[/end]

[Hink]

Errrrr, Pigments anybody? Coliflower, brussel sprouts?

you're right but I needed to end that ...apologies to all.