Developing Windows only plugins

[machinesworking]

That's pretty much why I don't want to offer macOS plugins. I'm sure that the Windows version didn't require as many updates as its macOS counterpart.

You really have to love Apple to give them all these hours of work. Or you do it solely for business reasons. I don't hate Apple, but I certainly don't like them either. For me, they are like any other computer company (Lenovo, Acer, HP, Dell, etc.). The difference is in their marketing, they are just really at marketing their products.

I 100% don't want you coding for Apple if you have negative feelings about the company, IMO this often ends up with buggy ports that surprise surprise do not sell well.

That said, I think you're missing his point, he named off hurdles both OS specific and just due to the nature of the amount of plug in formats to support, plus changes in architecture. Point being keeping a plug in up to date is always a process whether on one OS or not.

One way I'm sure most people look at this is that if you're comfortable in Windows, then the likely 50% paycut you take not porting to Mac is much much larger than the work it takes to port to Mac OS. What makes sense from a business perspective is to release on the OS you're comfortable with, then think about porting when you're plug in is entirely stable with some success. This is what U-He did, after a while the Windows ports came out and seem to be a success.

But if you're super partisan about Mac OS, then please, do not make a plug in for Macs, then spend all your time here posting about how much you hate Mac OS. It just gets really old to sift through all that nonsense.

[AndyMusician]

But if you're super partisan about Mac OS, then please, do not make a plug in for Macs, then spend all your time here posting about how much you hate Mac OS. It just gets really old to sift through all that nonsense.

I also don't want to develop for Linux and Android. Did you notice no one is bothered by that?

Also, no one is forcing you to read my threads. Why even read if it's unpleasant to you? Are you that lonely?

The partisans are the people who are not even audio plugin developers contributing nothing but useless opinions to the thread.

At the end of the day, all I'm seeking is valid data to analyze. It must come from audio plugin developers.

For me, the choice is not to develop Windows only plugins and eventually develop on macOS. The choice is either to develop Windows only plugins and make it or go into another field altogether.

Hence my question.

One thing I noticed with the answers from actual audio plugin developers, is that the data is not always clear because both Win/Mac formats are bundled together when sold. How can they know for sure the % of Windows vs Mac users if they don't sell the format separately?

In any case, I really appreciate the fact that some devs took the time to answer my question. I wasn't expecting any answer and just took a chance to ask. I'm thankful for their answers.

[machinesworking]

One thing I noticed with the answers from actual audio plugin developers, is that the data is not always clear because both Win/Mac formats are bundled together when sold. How can they know for sure the % of Windows vs Mac users if they don't sell the format separately?

Downloads are one format only. Any decent product webpage could tell you how many of which OS is being downloaded, and a general idea could be had. There's probably other ways I'm not even thinking of, but I've never downloaded a single zip or dmg file for both formats.

[Urs]

That's pretty much why I don't want to offer macOS plugins. I'm sure that the Windows version didn't require as many updates as its macOS counterpart.

The point is, if you don't do frequent updates, your revenue dies. And the Windows ecosystem is not static either.

[audiothing]

One thing I noticed with the answers from actual audio plugin developers, is that the data is not always clear because both Win/Mac formats are bundled together when sold. How can they know for sure the % of Windows vs Mac users if they don't sell the format separately?

Google Analytics, if set up properly, can tell you everything you need. The % of paying customers divided by platform, the amount they spend, and so on. That's how we know that we have slightly more Apple customers and that they pay more.
You can also count downloads of course (who would bundle Win/Mac formats together?) but this doesn't give you the number of real paying customers, unless you have separate download links for demo and full version.

[S0lo]

I have absolute zero knowledge in developing for mac. And all this talk about Apple's frequent platform purge makes me scratch head, and feeling just a bit uneasy about starting to do it. In Windows, if I stick with the core API for the most part, it's usually very difficult for Microsoft to render the code incompatible. Plus, they usually don't purge things but rather just state that it's deprecated while still keeping it working (eg, GDI+, Threading API etc.). How does that work in mac?

[EvilDragon]

Please, please, don't be THAT one stereotypical butthurt Mac guy. It's a fact that Mac users pay more and ARE willing to pay more.

It's because we CAN pay more;-) Please, please, don't be THAT one stereotypical butthurt PC guy that's broke and has to "roll his own". See how dumb that sounds? It's true , but it's still dumb.

I'm not broke and I can have a better, more performant machine for the same (or less) amount of cash Apple is asking for their "Pro" range.

[Urs]

I have absolute zero knowledge in developing for mac. And all this talk about Apple's frequent platform purge makes me scratch head, and feeling just a bit uneasy about starting to do it. In Windows, if I stick with the core API for the most part, it's usually very difficult for Microsoft to render the code incompatible. Plus, they usually don't purge things but rather just state that it's deprecated while still keeping it working (eg, GDI+, Threading API etc.). How does that work in mac?

As has been stated, most deprecated APIs on Mac survive another 5-10 major OS Updates (usually annual) before they actually get purged.

It's not overly difficult to see the warnings when compiling and read up on alternatives. There are years to do that.

However, sometimes those alternatives are quite involved. E.g. if your codebase relies on OpenGL, you now have a couple more years to figure out an alternative.

In the end it boils down to two questions:

- does the revenue from supporting a platform outweigh the effort put into it?
- and if so, are you willing to sacrifice that revenue for an easier life?

[FigBug]

If you want hard data, for one of my apps:
Windows: 89.4%
Mac: 9.17%
Linux: 1.43%

For my plugins:
Windows: 79%
Mac: 15%
Linux: 5%

[Lind0n]

OK a few quick observations from my side - and yes - I build plugins for a living - both for myself and for other people...

1. Urs is right on two points:
A: if you dont keep updating it - then it will shrivel and die - fact.
B: changes due to OS, CPU, Plug-in formats are a constant and if you enter the game then it will be part of your life, sure if you stick to windows and just do VST3 then its a smaller part of your life compared with adding in Mac VST3, AU and AAX (you can do AAX on windows but my experience is that its nearly zero sales..)

2. Despite all this Apple have a (well deserved) reputation for moving the goal posts on you. Again as Urs says they tend to give you acres of time to port to their new architectures, but did you see the word "tend" in that last sentence?(my word not Urs') Its often little things - like the recent moving maelstrom that was codesigning and notarisation - which worked eventually for everyone - but then broke**without notice** when Apple decided codesinging (or was it notarisation) needed the timestamp flag as a mandatory. Sure it took everyone only a few days to get past it - but if you are on a deadline - this sort of thing is worrying at best and reputationally damaging at worst.

3. Whilst there's been a fair emphasis in this thread on how hard it is to build for more than one platform I think you should also consider how hard it is to support users on both platforms. Again - I'm not anti-mac users at all - many of them are my best customers - but on 25% of sales (mac) I get 65% support calls (from mac users), so the cost of delivering an end-to-end service for the mac platform is probably going to be more expensive as a percentage of each product sale compared to windows...

Your mileage may vary.

[Kongru]

Please, please, don't be THAT one stereotypical butthurt Mac guy. It's a fact that Mac users pay more and ARE willing to pay more.

It's because we CAN pay more;-) Please, please, don't be THAT one stereotypical butthurt PC guy that's broke and has to "roll his own". See how dumb that sounds? It's true , but it's still dumb.

I'm not broke and I can have a better, more performant machine for the same (or less) amount of cash Apple is asking for their "Pro" range.

Believe it or not some people buy Apple machines for reasons other than the hardware

[EvilDragon]

Sure. I'm just not buying into that whole thing.

[syntonica]

I'm not broke and I can have a better, more performant machine for the same (or less) amount of cash Apple is asking for their "Pro" range.

Yes, but you also have Windows.

My MacBook Pro, which I got as a refurb, is a solidly built and elegantly designed laptop. I bought a used Fujitsu Windows laptop for dev work of very similar spec that originally cost almost twice what I paid for the Mac. Everything about it is truly awful, from the huge dot pitch of the screen, the flexible plastic case, the useless trackpad, the cheap, spongy keyboard, etc., etc. It was only $300. The used price on my 2014 MBP is still hovering just a tad below what I originally paid for it.

So, Mac vs PC is just a trade-off to me. Currently, macOS currently annoys me far, far less than Windows 10, so that is what I chose.

[EvilDragon]

Well you know how it goes. I've been with Windows since 3.11 for Workgroups as a kid. It stuck around. So I don't really mind it.

Fujitsu laptops aren't really very good overall, but there's an abundance of choice so finding a good one is indeed a task in and of itself (usually Dell and Lenovo kick ass).

[perpetual3]

For what’s it’s worth (which apparently is nothing since I am not currently an audio plugin developer) my Lenovo thinkpad that I use for dev is truly one of the worst laptops I have ever used, for exactly the reasons listed above. It’s a company laptop, so it’s no skin off my back, but even my manager who delivered it to me was laughing at how bad it is. But they are not going to shell out for the nice-to-work on Mac. And since they are tight with security, I can only work on the computer they give me. Understandable on both counts, but not a pleasure to use.