Why you left Bitwig?

[GaryG]

I find a mouse so much more productive what with all the modifier keys you tend to use in a DAW etc.

What does this have to do with mouse vs. touchpad? I use modifier keys with touchpad all the time.

So do I. But I find using them easier with a mouse. Holding down a modifier, a left/right button and dragging I find can be a bit hit and miss, tangle of fingers. But maybe that's just my thirty years of mouse muscle memory talking.

[tooneba]

When pro gamer migrated to trackpad from gaming mouse it's the point trackpad outperformed mouse's overall usability: accuracy/speed/weariness. Until then you don't even need to care about it. ZZzzzz

You produce music with Guitar Hero?

Touchpads won't go away and they get better all the time. This reminds me the rhetoric from few years back when discussing DAWs - "Why would anyone use a 4K screen?! You make music or graphics?". Fast forward to today and we're in a world where lots of DAWs still fail to support high-DPI properly, plugins use different methods to scale their content (or don't bother at all, like Waves or NI).

No, those who think ahead will usually have advantage, like Bitwig with its touch interface when transition of Macs to ARM arcitecture will inevitably lead to running desktop DAWs on iPads.

You explained yourself. You would say you don't need the level of gaming mouse's accuracy/speed/anti-exhaustion ergonomics for music production HID. Why not? You don't need to force yourself to use inferior technology just because you think it's overkill.

[antic604]

You explained yourself. You would say you don't need the level of gaming mouse's accuracy/speed/anti-exhaustion ergonomics for music production HID. Why not? You don't need to force yourself to use inferior technology just because you think it's overkill.

How is - well implemented - touchpad an "inferior technology", though?

It might be for - competitive! - gaming, but for a lot of other things it just isn't. And I believe for making music ultimate speed & accuracy isn't necessary at all and with the amount of scrolling & zooming we do all the time, it can be more natural. Also, comfort and exhaustion is a matter of preference and getting used to. I never noticed my hand getting exhausted from using touchpad.

Lastly, I don't understand why we're even discussing touchpad vs. mouse at all?!

I said I moved from Live to Bitwig because at the time the former had a much better support for touchpad gestures (and high-DPI and touch screens). Using touchpad was & continues to be my preference and I never said that mice suck. I only objected to the claim that touchpads suck. Both obviously don't, but for various reasons my preference is with the latter and I don't think that my speed or comfort suffered, because then I'd have chosen otherwise.

BTW, I wonder how this looks for other DAWs:
viewtopic.php?f=259&t=554509

[tooneba]

You explained yourself. You would say you don't need the level of gaming mouse's accuracy/speed/anti-exhaustion ergonomics for music production HID. Why not? You don't need to force yourself to use inferior technology just because you think it's overkill.

How is - well implemented - touchpad an "inferior technology", though?

It might be for - competitive! - gaming, but for a lot of other things it just isn't. And I believe for making music ultimate speed & accuracy isn't necessary at all and with the amount of scrolling & zooming we do all the time, it can be more natural. Also, comfort and exhaustion is a matter of preference and getting used to. I never noticed my hand getting exhausted from using touchpad.

I don't criticize each indivisual's preference. Someone can prefer Macbook pro 2015's keyboard over others. But that is that. I just use relatively best (accuracy/speed/anti-fatigue ergonomics) HID if it's easily accessible. I don't need to cripple myself.

[antic604]

I don't criticize each indivisual's preference. Someone can prefer Macbook pro 2015's keyboard over others. But that is that. I just use relatively best (accuracy/speed/anti-fatigue ergonomics) HID if it's easily accessible. I don't need to cripple myself.

But then you do. In the very same post

Saying that "I don't need to cripple myself" you imply that others making different choice do. But this is your subjective preference and viewpoint, because it's not about ultimate speed & accuracy for everybody. I said it countless times already (I don't expect you to follow my posts, obviously) that I don't have a fixed place in my home for music making, so everything I use - laptop, MIDI controller, headphones - is going in & out of the closet every day (or night, really). Not having to remember about yet another device is much more important for me, than the - alleged, because it's not really the case - additional inch my fingers have to travel to scroll something.

[tooneba]

I don't criticize each indivisual's preference. Someone can prefer Macbook pro 2015's keyboard over others. But that is that. I just use relatively best (accuracy/speed/anti-fatigue ergonomics) HID if it's easily accessible. I don't need to cripple myself.

But then you do. In the very same post

Saying that "I don't need to cripple myself" you imply that others making different choice do. But this is your subjective preference and viewpoint, because it's not about ultimate speed & accuracy for everybody.

Where? I just gave objective reason in the first post. When pro gamers who need best accuracy/speed/anti-fatigue ergonomics device migrated to trackpad that is the telltale sign you may consider to change your way of choosing relatively best HID. I get you don't need accuracy/speed/anti-fatigue ergonomics.

I said it countless times already (I don't expect you to follow my posts, obviously) that I don't have a fixed place in my home for music making, so everything I use - laptop, MIDI controller, headphones - is going in & out of the closet every day (or night, really). Not having to remember about yet another device is much more important for me, than the - alleged, because it's not really the case - additional inch my fingers have to travel to scroll something.

Yeah that's called compromising. I don't ignore mobile devices resort to other mean when physically restrained. The point is I don't choose crippled HID when relatively best HID is easily accessible.

[pdxindy]

You obviously haven't used a good trackpad recently... it doesn't require one to swipe and swipe and swipe. On my MacBook Pro one swipe easily covers the whole screen.

I'm pretty sure that's not right, unless it's changed in the last 18 months or so. Even those huge new trackpads aren't mapped 1:1, I've tried them, and if the mapping changes with the speed of your swipe, that's gotta be even worse, surely?

I'm sitting here using it right now. It works as I describe, and I understand one might think that the speed scaling would feel weird but it doesn't. It feels very natural and intuitive.

[liquidsound]

Come the revolution, they'll be second in line for the firing squad, after the baristas.

That's so freaking keen

[grubezebro]

Now that Ableton adds MPE, piano roll scales and much more does anyone feel encouraged to leave Bitwig for it?

[machinesworking]

Now that Ableton adds MPE, piano roll scales and much more does anyone feel encouraged to leave Bitwig for it?

I'm not leaving Bitwig for it, but a music partner of mine is welded to Live, my fault years ago I sold him on Live, his day job is as a web page and graphic designer, he gravitates towards UX that is intuitive over long term gains like key commands, complexity etc. So I will upgrade Live to remain easily compatible with him.

I still think Bitwig does better MPE, but the comping in Live is great, and I do miss retrospective MIDI record when using Bitwig.

[pdxindy]

Now that Ableton adds MPE, piano roll scales and much more does anyone feel encouraged to leave Bitwig for it?

I gave it a thought... but then looking at Live (which I used for years), there is just too much that I appreciate about Bitwig that I would lose. So at most, I would upgrade Live and use both.

However, in that case, I have Logic which already does much more than what Live just added and generally does it better. Bitwig and Logic makes a more complete and complimentary combo than Bitwig and Live.

[Tj Shredder]

Now that Ableton adds MPE, piano roll scales and much more does anyone feel encouraged to leave Bitwig for it?

No! Why should I?
Ableton could not encourage me to use it since it started. Even not with the introduction of M4L and I am using Max/MSP longer than Live exists...
Bitwig grabed me with 1.0... MPE wasn’t the only reason...

[dupont]

I tried a demo of bitwig.
I don't understand why there are this bugs in the 3rd version :
clue flags becomes uneditable when you hoover them across each other, you can't even delete them
graphical glitches in the automation editor when there is a mix of relative and absolute automation : white lines are created according to edit cursor position, quicly becomes a graphycal mess

edited : I forgot the main point : some au plugins are not scanned in component folder but the same plug in is Ok from vst folder ! I added the component forlder in Bitwig preferences and forced a rescan but some plugin still won't show up.
This works fine In Reaper and LP X (of course no vst in LPX).
That's a showstopper for mac users !

I miss from Reaper : region markers (best than tiny cue markers)
sometimes a real mess in the different editor windows in Bitwig
no extended mixer view in arrange view (only in session view ! WTF)
no insert 4 automation points at selected area (I use this a lot)
Also what a mess when in a container you have a drum rack with each slot effects and different assignements, even a cat will not find is kitten.
Native plugins (compressor, limiter) are not fantastic
Price : 379 vs 60 for Reaper and I think you have to pay each year (100 €) for Bitwig upgrade.

Advantage over Reaper : clips can be recorded on the fly on the arrange view and it can be used as a scratch pad to store ideas at hand
The grid plugin (but I have to dig more into it).
Arrange view layout and color use are easy on the eye and clear on 5K screen.

I don't really care about CPU usage, my 8 cores I7 3.8 Ghz 10th Gen could run anything !

[antic604]

I miss from Reaper: sometimes a real mess in the different editor windows in Bitwig

Bitwig is a mess compared to Reaper??

no extended mixer view in arrange view (only in session view ! WTF)

There is. There's a column of buttons on the right that decides which areas of the mixer are shown. Only big meters aren't available.

no insert 4 automation points at selected area (I use this a lot)

Switch to draw tool ('2') and then while holding Alt you'll be drawing a horizontal line the width of the grid.

Also what a mess when in a container you have a drum rack with each slot effects and different assignements, even a cat will not find is kitten.

Much easier that e.g. finding a parameter you want to automate in Reaper, so...

Native plugins (compressor, limiter) are not fantastic

At least it has plugins, not just EQ, compressor & delay Also, the whole point of Bitwig's devices is you need to chain, stack & nest them to start comparing to fixed-architecture, 3rd party stuff.

Price : 379 vs 60 for Reaper and I think you have to pay each year (100 €) for Bitwig upgrade.

No, you don't have to. It's not a subscription.

edited : I forgot the main point : some au plugins are not scanned in component folder

Bitwig doesn't support OS-exclusive tech like AU, because it runs on Windows, macOS and Linux.

[ReleaseCandidate]

Bitwig doesn't support OS-exclusive tech like AU, because it runs on Windows, macOS and Linux.

AU isn't OS dependent, but exclusive to Logic (and that doesn't run on anything but OSX). But you could use AU plugins everywhere.
Same as PT's AAX or DP's MAS or Reason's RE.
If it where about openness, they'd have to use LADSPA (LV2) - the problém is, that there are almost no LV2 plugins.