KVR Audio

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:23 pm

So... Does it make a difference? I can see on the Scan site various kits up to 32Gb with optimized RAM -- but none for 64Gb, which is what I'm contemplating upgrading to.

Pictus · Post by **Pictus** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:19 am

Yes, less headache...
This is the one to choose
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/7ZW ... 2g36c16u4b

IF you have any problem or want to further tweak
https://www.overclock.net/forum/13-amd- ... bench.html

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:24 am

It only needs to be 3000 or 3200 for my CPU and I'll not be overclocking. Is there anywhere that actually explains what it means?

Pictus · Post by **Pictus** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:07 pm

Ryzen like faster RAM
http://www.scanproaudio.info/2019/07/30 ... an-impact/

https://youtu.be/xSAFs-t0DCg

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:18 pm

Neither of those really explained the difference between these:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-(2 ... 18-18-36-x
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-2x ... -ryzen-opt

Now the only thing I can see different on those two (32Gb) kits is the latter is £124.74 and the former £116.99, plus you get "Ryzen Optimized" for your money. The numbers look the same.

BTW: My CPU is a AMD Ryzen 5 3400G -- the spec says 2933MHz RAM. (The DRAM calculator says "N/A" for FCLK... maybe I've not told it enough...)
I'm currently running this pair:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-(2 ... 18-18-35-x

cleverr1 · Post by **cleverr1** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:23 pm

Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

I was initially confused by the comment about FCLK - UCLK > 166 (at around 13 mins 15), but I think what he meant was that if there must be a mismatch then make it greater than 166. Everything else I've noticed mentions FCLK:UCLK should be 1:1.

The Scan article mentions DDR4 3733 CAS 16 as being the optimal, but that these are rare and super expensive.

So the sweet spot appears to be DDR4 3600 CAS 18, as 3XS use in their Ryzen audio w/s builds.

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:04 pm

Aha
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp ... port#68668
> It's 3rd Gen Ryzen and nothing else, the 3400G and 3200G are Picasso as Ray wrote earlier, the FCLK and DRAM CLK are linked and cannot be uncoupled...
Well, that explains the "N/A". Why was that so hard to find... (And I had told it enough - although I could have said Zen+ rather than Zen1 apparently.)

So either FCLK=MCLK == UCLK or FCLK=MCLK > UCLK+166, right... But does that apply to the Zen+? Or is there no gain? 2933+166 = 3100 so the 3200 would best the speed. It still doesn't answer the "Ryzen optimized" question I started with.

cleverr1 · Post by **cleverr1** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:51 pm

pljones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:04 pm So either FCLK=MCLK == UCLK or FCLK=MCLK > UCLK+166, right... But does that apply to the Zen+? Or is there no gain? 2933+166 = 3100 so the 3200 would best the speed. It still doesn't answer the "Ryzen optimized" question I started with.

Those figures are a bit misleading as DDR speed is 2 x MCLK, and according to the video Pictus posted FCLK typically runs between 1766 and 1900 MHz, so given that you can't split the FCLK from the MCLK with a 3400G the optimum cost/performance would be DDR4 3600.

However, it's an interesting question in the context of a 3400G. I'd assume that it's a single dye CPU as it has 4 cores, and as I understand it the main issue with using slow RAM on Ryzens is cross core latency on multi dye systems. However, if the 3400G is stable with an FCLK of 1800 (as mentioned on several forums) then DDR4 3600 should still provide better performance than DDR4 3200 with the same CAS latencies.

anttimaatteri · Post by **anttimaatteri** » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:01 pm

pljones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:18 pm Neither of those really explained the difference between these:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-(2 ... 18-18-36-x
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-2x ... -ryzen-opt

Now the only thing I can see different on those two (32Gb) kits is the latter is £124.74 and the former £116.99, plus you get "Ryzen Optimized" for your money. The numbers look the same.

BTW: My CPU is a AMD Ryzen 5 3400G -- the spec says 2933MHz RAM. (The DRAM calculator says "N/A" for FCLK... maybe I've not told it enough...)
I'm currently running this pair:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-(2 ... 18-18-35-x

i am using mine with a pair of gskills 3200mhz 16 18 18 38 with samsung chips and i had an issue with them when i run the pc with the on cpu gfx unit. the compzter completely crashed to blackscreens on a regular basis but only in games, even with running at all lower mhzrates/ramvoltage. the crashing happened after a few minutes up to maybe 39mins ingame depending on what i set in the uefi bios f11 of the x570 aorus board.
i found a pretty stable point in 3000mhz at 1.32v, anythign else on auto. cas timings manually set to the specs. but occasionally it still crashes in games.

after i bought a graka, which was my plan anyway, everthings worked perfect since then. not a single crash anymore, even in games.

so yes, this apu is VERY picky with ram. maybe its better with higher clocks but i doubt it. that cpu is messing around beyond 3000mhz for sure. unless you go the hard overclocking/underclocking trial and error way...

and btw THAT gskill/x570/3400g combi...is just not working with 4 modules!! so beware. tryin to fin 4 module ram for it is the next big hurdle

Pictus · Post by **Pictus** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:01 am

pljones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:18 pm Neither of those really explained the difference between these:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-(2 ... 18-18-36-x
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/32gb-2x ... -ryzen-opt

Now the only thing I can see different on those two (32Gb) kits is the latter is £124.74 and the former £116.99, plus you get "Ryzen Optimized" for your money. The numbers look the same.

The numbers you see in the description does not tell the whole history...
You have run Thaiphoon Burner and see the details. http://softnology.biz/

RAM recommendations for AMD Ryzen and Intel Core
(Use Google Chrome to translate)
https://www.computerbase.de/thema/ram/rangliste/

pljones wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:04 pm Aha
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp ... port#68668
> It's 3rd Gen Ryzen and nothing else, the 3400G and 3200G are Picasso as Ray wrote earlier, the FCLK and DRAM CLK are linked and cannot be uncoupled...
Well, that explains the "N/A". Why was that so hard to find... (And I had told it enough - although I could have said Zen+ rather than Zen1 apparently.)

So either FCLK=MCLK == UCLK or FCLK=MCLK > UCLK+166, right... But does that apply to the Zen+? Or is there no gain? 2933+166 = 3100 so the 3200 would best the speed. It still doesn't answer the "Ryzen optimized" question I started with.

I have no experience with your CPU and do not know what are the speed limits.

Pictus · Post by **Pictus** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:11 am

anttimaatteri wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:01 pm i am using mine with a pair of gskills 3200mhz 16 18 18 38 with samsung chips and i had an issue with them when i run the pc with the on cpu gfx unit. the compzter completely crashed to blackscreens on a regular basis but only in games, even with running at all lower mhzrates/ramvoltage. the crashing happened after a few minutes up to maybe 39mins ingame depending on what i set in the uefi bios f11 of the x570 aorus board.
i found a pretty stable point in 3000mhz at 1.32v, anythign else on auto. cas timings manually set to the specs. but occasionally it still crashes in games.

after i bought a graka, which was my plan anyway, everthings worked perfect since then. not a single crash anymore, even in games.

so yes, this apu is VERY picky with ram. maybe its better with higher clocks but i doubt it. that cpu is messing around beyond 3000mhz for sure. unless you go the hard overclocking/underclocking trial and error way...

and btw THAT gskill/x570/3400g combi...is just not working with 4 modules!! so beware. tryin to fin 4 module ram for it is the next big hurdle

Use the DRAM calculator and you may run at higher speeds or even use 4 modules...
https://www.overclock.net/threads/new-d ... h.1640919/

Pictus · Post by **Pictus** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:59 am

cleverr1 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:23 pm Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

I was initially confused by the comment about FCLK - UCLK > 166 (at around 13 mins 15), but I think what he meant was that if there must be a mismatch then make it greater than 166. Everything else I've noticed mentions FCLK:UCLK should be 1:1.

The Scan article mentions DDR4 3733 CAS 16 as being the optimal, but that these are rare and super expensive.

So the sweet spot appears to be DDR4 3600 CAS 18, as 3XS use in their Ryzen audio w/s builds.

You are welcome!
Yes, FCLK = UCLK is the way, you can check with https://www.hwinfo.com
or https://zentimings.protonrom.com/

Micron E-die is the best(more compatible and very tweakable) RAM for RYZEN.
Here *both* my Crucial(Micron E-DIE) 2x8 3000MHz and 2x16 3200MHz are working at 3733MHz!
To achieve 3733MHz also depends on the motherboard/CPU quality...
They can work at 3800MHz, but I find it toooo much in the edge for Ryzen 3000.

The 3000/3200 kits are not expensive
https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memor ... ice&page=1
You can find more at (Use Google Chrome to translate)
https://www.computerbase.de/2020-01/mic ... yzen-3000/
and
https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threa ... t-23004580

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:39 am

cleverr1 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:51 pmThose figures are a bit misleading as DDR speed is 2 x MCLK, and according to the video Pictus posted FCLK typically runs between 1766 and 1900 MHz, so given that you can't split the FCLK from the MCLK with a 3400G the optimum cost/performance would be DDR4 3600.

Yep, I realised late last night I'd forgotten the MCLK=DDR4/2 step. I'll have to go watch the vid again the remember where UCLK comes from... and the video doesn't say at what point UCLK drops from 1:1 to 2:1 mode with MCLK. Maybe it's related to CPU speed rather than memory speed? Anyone know? Or know if it matters?

OK, so ... 3.7GHz CPU speed (no overclocking, running cool and quiet - not fast, it's fast enough). Stated memory frequency 2933MHz. That would give MCLK=FCLK of 1467. (If UCLK is related to, say CPU clock / 2, then 1850 would possibly be a limit here... I'm dubious...)

2933 RAM isn't that common. My current MCLK=FCLK is 2666MHz/2 = 1333. This has been rock solid. All I'm really after is doubling the RAM to 64GB and, seeing as prices have come down, maybe upping the speed to what the CPU is capable of. I guess a 2% "overclock" on the FCLK to get DDR4 3000 should be pretty stable.

So it still comes back to the "what does Ryzen Optimized mean" question. If it needs a link to a page in German to answer it, I have to think it's just marketing speak.

Pictus · Post by **Pictus** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:43 am

pljones wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:39 am So it still comes back to the "what does Ryzen Optimized mean" question. If it needs a link to a page in German to answer it, I have to think it's just marketing speak.

The timings are optimized for AMD memory controller and probably
using a chip type that is RYZEN friendly.

cleverr1 · Post by **cleverr1** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:59 am

Having done some more reading around this the Ryzen 3400g zen+ APU doesn't have the same FCLK capability as the Ryzen 7nm chips. One report suggested the DDR could run up to 3466MHz, but no good info about stability.

The slower DDR4 has lower CAS latency so would be a better choice than an underclocked faster DDR4 with a higher CAS latency at the same frequency.

There appears to be nothing like as much info about the 3400g as there is about the 7nm CPUs, unfortunately.

Ryzen Optimized RAM