Why you left your current DAW for X/Y/Z and why you came back eventually?

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So I thought I'll give a spin to the usual "why you left..." thread :wink: :help:

Many of us here constantly try new DAWs, hoping to find "the perfect one" that will keep us inspired and productive, slowly but surely realising there's no such thing and "grass is always greener..." rings true also in this case. So I'm curious about 3 things to hear from you:
1) What's your "home" DAW
2) Which DAW you tried thinking it will replace it & why you thought so
3) What was(were) the reason(s) you came back eventually

So, I'll give few examples from my own experience but please don't consider this as me trying to say one DAW - Bitwig, in my case - is better than others. It might be the case for me, for how I write music and what kind of music it is, what's my setup and workflow, etc. It's VERY subjective, so I don't want to start a DAW vs. DAW discussion, but rather understand the priorities people have, the choices they make and choice-making process.



And so, for me:

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1) Bitwig

2) Ableton Live - I bought Push2 before I left Live in 2017 partially because Bitwig also supports it, but the support is so much better in Ableton that I always felt I need to go back to it. Also, I left at 9.7 and 10 brought lots of workflow improvements that if implemented sooner would probably prevent me from switching in the first place, so that was another factor pulling me in.

3) It turned out that as fantastic as Push2 is, it really doesn't work well for my music and my setup. Or differently - I can do all the same things that I need with a Launchpad X, that's much cheaper, smaller and more versatile (it can work as a generic controller). Furthermore, all the new workflow stuff Ableton added were great, but for some reason after just 1 year of not using it Live felt surprisingly stiff & rigid to me after Bitwig: building device chains seemed like a chore, not having the clip launcher next to arranger suddenly was very inconvenient, modulation - that I felt was fantastic in 2017! - appeared very constraining now, the whole user experience of launching Live, adding devices, loading projects, scanning new plugins, etc. was really sub-par to how snappy and fast Bitwig was. Since then I've sold Push2 and kept my license to see what's gonna happen in 10.2+ but I don't really see me going back, unless Bitwig f**ks up & Ableton does fantastic job ;)

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1) Bitwig

2) Reason 10/11 - I'm in love with the idea and paradigm of Reason. Despite some grievances about abstracting some of the elements (MIDI connections, Mix Channels to Master connections) I really dig the whole "virtual hardware studio" aspect of it and the whole process of adding devices, patching stuff, separate sequencer/rack/mixer feels very tactile and satisfying. The ecosystem of REs is also something I appreciate a lot, with how easy & safe it is to have everything set up and kept up-to-date, also for 3rd party stuff. And REs are often much more innovative and multi-purpose than VSTs, because they're much more tightly integrated. Lastly, I really love the look of Reason, despite low-res character or it. All of that resulted in me being able to quickly create something worth saving every time I opened it, which is/was rarely the case with Bitwig or Live.

3) As I said above, Reason is a super inspiring idea generator for me, but once the idea gets past certain size it all gets unwieldy and out of control. There's dozens of separate automation tracks getting created that are unrelated to "main" instrument they'd belong to otherwise in other DAWs, there's no folders to contain that chaos, the cables & patches become difficult to decypher after you've come back to a project week or two later, if you're not meticulous the 1:1 correspondence of Sequencer and Rack can quickly get out of hand, if you're using VSTs it gets difficult to find the one you want because all of them look the same in Rack (despite thumbnails). Past certain point it simply became frustrating, rather than being fun and resulted with lots of unfinished projects.

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1) Bitwig

2) Studio One 4/5 - I always have this "fear" that because I mostly start my Bitwig tracks in Clip Launcher they will end up sounding similarly and "square"-ish in terms of arrangement: very even, equal segments, repetitive sequences of 4/8/16-bar loops, etc. So my thinking was to get out of my comfort zone and try a "traditional", linear DAW. S1 looked perfect: because it's a new & modern code base (a bit like Bitwig is to Live), it's got lots of advanced editing, mixing & mastering features that Bitwig doesn't, it's got harmonic editing / chord track and I'm musically a numpty; but also has some familiar stuff like multi-instruments, extended FX chains, pattern sequencer and is not as cluttered as Cubase or Reaper to feel overwhelming and confusing.

3) While I still think S1 is the best - for me! - linear DAW out there, I find myself bumping into 2 issues: I don't really use all the advanced features it offers compared to Bitwig and despite it having some familiar stuff I mentioned above, I'm quickly reaching the limit and feel constrained instead. For example I thought that chord track will be huge for me, but in a way I end up more limited by it. Or to put it differently, it offers "standard" and "cliche" solutions, whereas if I'm doing it by hand I'll borrow some chords from other scale or do something unexpected that still sounds good, but is not "by the book". Likewise, the extended FX chains theoretically allow for complex device chains, but a) it's a laborious process to build them (e.g. mid/side split workflow is ridiculous in comparison), b) it's a chore to adjust or edit it. Also, obviously, there's no modulation features, which is a bummer. So I end up in a place where I don't need a lot of features that are there, but I don't have a lot of stuff I "need" (or got used to having).

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Looking forward to interesing, friendly discussion :) :tu:
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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i leave my current host most days, for several reasons.
the main ones being bed, food, drink or "waste disposal"(nice way of saying to piss n shit).
sometimes i go to the shop also.

none pandemic/lockdown would include missus breaks too.


i usually return, to do more work.
:ud:

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Changing DAWs is just an excuse to escape getting to grips with learning how to master an instrument.

Once a person is proficient at playing keyboards or guitar or the accordion or whatever then all they need is a multi-track tape recorder and they are away. So any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.

Maybe the exception to that would be EDM which seems to suit the robotic perfect timing that inputting with a mouse into a step sequencer brings.

But for Rock - Pop - Jazz - classical - 80s synth pop - blues - etc, its about knuckling down and learning how to play.

I am most productive when I use a simple DAW like energy-xt and a hardware rompler and input in real time. So if the dev ever comes back from his extended holiday and updates it then that will be my natural home I think.

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Ableton doesn't have to do the fantastic job Propellerheads did it, AL(10) with the plugin version of Reason(and with all its extensions) and with Push (2) is a very enjoyable DAW at this moment (+ Hexo and Modulat)

ps. if somebody missed Hexo same as Nora so able to chop chords into smaller parts

and more, Bitwig hasn't got step/retrospective recording at this moment this is why I went back to AL(I've used 9 then went to BWS then back to AL 10)
Last edited by xbitz on Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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dellboy wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:32 am Changing DAWs is just an excuse to escape getting to grips with learning how to master an instrument.

Once a person is proficient at playing keyboards or guitar or the accordion or whatever then all they need is a multi-track tape recorder and they are away. So any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.

Maybe the exception to that would be EDM which seems to suit the robotic perfect timing that inputting with a mouse into a step sequencer brings.
Yes, exactly! I agree 100%.

If you're a "real musician" and your instrument is your voice, piano, guitar, drums, violin, etc. then DAW is pretty much unimportant as long as it can record what you played, arrange it and mix it. But when the DAW becomes an instrument or at least a set of tools which provide you with inspiration and ideas, then it - at least for me - becomes obvious that you also want to look around for what's available out there, just like vocalists use different mics, guitarists use different guitars, etc. One should definitely master the tool(s) they have, but what if there's a tool out there that would open up my creativity to the extent I can't even fathom right now? I can't do in Studio One a lot of things I do daily in Bitwig and I chose them to be important for my music, so if I was S1 user primarily and hadn't checked out Bitwig, my music would be different - maybe better, maybe worse, but definitely different.

I've a mental block against using several DAWs at once - one has better piano roll, other has great audio editing, yet another is great for mixing, etc. - but I've no problem going out there and looking for something potentially better than I'm currently using, assuming that - at the end - I'll settle for it and learn everything I can about it. Or go back to where I started from ;)
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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dellboy wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:32 am Changing DAWs is just an excuse to escape getting to grips with learning how to master an instrument.

Once a person is proficient at playing keyboards or guitar or the accordion or whatever then all they need is a multi-track tape recorder and they are away. So any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.

Maybe the exception to that would be EDM which seems to suit the robotic perfect timing that inputting with a mouse into a step sequencer brings.

But for Rock - Pop - Jazz - classical - 80s synth pop - blues - etc, its about knuckling down and learning how to play.

I am most productive when I use a simple DAW like energy-xt and a hardware rompler and input in real time. So if the dev ever comes back from his extended holiday and updates it then that will be my natural home I think.
Then why film composers are utilizing perfect timing DAW to arrange large project containing midi and expression map data as well as recorded orchestra? It doesn't seem any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.

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tooneba wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:19 pmThen why film composers are utilizing perfect timing DAW to arrange large project containing midi and expression map data as well as recorded orchestra? It doesn't seem any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.
I don't think we should be discussing Hans Zimmer-s or Junkie XL-s of this world in this topic, because they're running custom-tailored versions of their DAW on server farms, etc.

I'm pretty sure less "famous" composers, that are not constrained by their existing hardware architecture and endorsment deals, definitely have looked at Reaper or Luna as potential replacement for Cubase or Logic :)
Last edited by antic604 on Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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id imagine any film composer who is switching hosts as often as some here, isnt getting much work finished.
:ud:

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tooneba wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:19 pm
Then why film composers are utilizing perfect timing DAW to arrange large project containing midi and expression map data as well as recorded orchestra? It doesn't seem any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.
Did you have a film composer in mind that uses perfect timing to compose film scores ?

Most composers also play an instrument, maybe not at top level, but good enough to get there thoughts down on paper.

For most composing a piano or guitar is good enough to map out chords and melodies. Later on it can be fleshed out in a DAW and quantizing can be used to tighten it up a bit if needed.

But in the end most big film scores end up by being played live by a big orchestra in a studio where absolute perfect timing is not needed or wanted.

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antic604 wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:00 pm
tooneba wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:19 pmThen why film composers are utilizing perfect timing DAW to arrange large project containing midi and expression map data as well as recorded orchestra? It doesn't seem any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.
I don't think we should be discussing Hans Zimmer-s or Junkie XL-s of this world in this topic, because they're running custom-tailored versions of their DAW on server farms, etc.
Actually, no (and no, composers don't record or mix 'real' orchestras - if you're having the money for that, you can also pay a mixing engineer, and the recording/mixing DAW is Pro Tools). They use stock DAWs and let VEPro handle the networking of Plugins https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Softwar ... semble_PRO.

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dellboy wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:22 pm
tooneba wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:19 pm
Then why film composers are utilizing perfect timing DAW to arrange large project containing midi and expression map data as well as recorded orchestra? It doesn't seem any old DAW with digital recording fits the bill.
Did you have a film composer in mind that uses perfect timing to compose film scores ?

Most composers also play an instrument, maybe not at top level, but good enough to get there thoughts down on paper.

For most composing a piano or guitar is good enough to map out chords and melodies. Later on it can be fleshed out in a DAW and quantizing can be used to tighten it up a bit if needed.

But in the end most big film scores end up by being played live by a big orchestra in a studio where absolute perfect timing is not needed or wanted.
You don't need to move the goalpost to justify your argument. You said "old DAW with digital recording fits the bill." So I replied to that part as I repeated in my post. Neither composer being able to play piano/guitar nor recording whole scores later is related to the reality pro users utilizing modern high-end features which didn't exist in old DAW.

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tooneba wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:43 pm
You don't need to move the goalpost to justify your argument. You said "old DAW with digital recording fits the bill." So I replied. Neither composer being able to play piano/guitar nor recording whole scores later is related to the reality pro users utilizing modern high-end features which didn't exist in old DAW.
Ah, sorry, I should have said for ME "any old DAW would do", I was not thinking of pro musicians at the very top level when I wrote that.

Even so, how do you think all major films were recorded before the advent of digital recording ?

I am pretty sure the theme music to "Doctor Zhivago" in 1965 was not recorded in a digital DAW.

Anyway, what is the problem with someone on a music based forum devoted to making music suggesting that people learn to play a musical instrument ?

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I used Cubase many moons ago and left it for Logic because it was bug fest, now I'm getting into again because my newest music partner uses it and that's what we actually use in our studio, so yeah, gonna go with it again, it makes sense, but Bitwig is still my DAW of choice for my own stuff.

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I first got Logic because I started with Garageband. Then I eventually tried Live and everything made way more sense - dealing with samples, racks, midi routing, clips, you name it. Changing DAWs was definitely the right move. Like antic said, to me the DAW is an instrument and use it to program and manipulate sequences, create complex effect chains for sound design etc. I still use Logic from time to time because of some great included plugins but the DAW side of things is a pain.

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I've never understood this "why did you leave..." nonsense. Most people are perfectly capable of being proficient in more than one DAW. Whether or not they choose to be is a different question, but I've personally only "left" (i.e., sold or just stopped updating and installing) a couple of DAWs. Sonar was my main DAW for probably 15 years, but I've done away with Windows for good now and Logic has become my main DAW. But, I've used (and own/owned licenses for) Ableton, Cubase, Studio One, Pro Tools, Project5, FLS, and Bitwig. I use some of them for various collaborations, others just because I wanted a temporary change of scenery or new ways of thinking/working. Currently, I primarily use Logic for my own work, occasionally Ableton when I collaborate with one friend or for occasionally sketching out some new ideas, and Studio One for collabs with another friend. I have Cubase and FLS installed but never really use them, got rid of PT just before they went subscription, haven't installed Bitwig since moving to Mac because I don't really like using it (no offense, it just doesn't click with me), and no longer use Sonar or Project5 because I no longer own a Windows computer.
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