Continuation of off-topic discussions...

[e-crooner]

Since this discussion was totally off-topic in an instrument thread (what else is new ), I'll start this general discussion thread, where people can continue interesting off-topic discussions, not least from the Instruments section, without being off-topic anymore

I am talking about today. Today we do pay attention to the sound of synths, not least because in hindsight they are linked to certain eras. In the 80s there was no 80s nostalgia, obviously, but today there is.

That's right, if artists in the 80s had thought the way you do, they'd have been trying to make music that sounded exactly like Glen Miller. But they didn't because they weren't navel-gazing losers, they were pushing boundaries and creating something new and fresh.

Again, with your music it doesn't matter what synth you use.

It matters to me. A lot.

But there are other genres where it matters a lot.

Not really, it's just that the people who work within those genres don't know their craft well enough to be able to use other synths to do the same job. They think that if their favourite artist used "x" synth, then that's what they have to use which, most of the time, is simply rubbish.

Back in the 80s 'made in Japan' meant lower price, but not lower quality. In fact, I would prefer a Jupiter 8 to a Prophet 5, regardless of the price.

Easy to say in 2020 but at the time a Prophet V cost as much as a brand new car (literally).

Nor does the fact that many people bought a digital synth like the DX7 or one of those sample-based ones (M1 etc.) mean that they no longer used their analog ones.

Of course they did, all of them. Try and find a live video from 1988 that shows anyone who could afford better using an analogue synth on stage. It came down to cost - most of us couldn't afford a new synth unless we sold the old one to pay for it. And today they all use softsynths, like this -

An M1 or DX7 just doesn't produce all the sounds people might need, so they complement each other nicely.

Again, that's rubbish. A DX7 can do pretty much anything, imitate pretty much everything. And an M1 had plenty of passable synth sounds.

I don't agree. While a good song is a good song, the way it sounds is also important. A bad production can destroy even a good song.

It's never held Metallica back.

When you think that your cover versions sound better than the originals, it is your opinion.

Of course it's not, it is completely quantifiable. My mixes have far greater clarity, each instrument is far more clearly defined and there is zero noise in the mix (although I've discovered Studio One will put some in if I want to sabotage my work).

But frankly, I doubt it.

You probably won't like them as much, I'd be surprised if you did, but from a technical perspective their production is measurably, quantifably better.

Post your versions so we can compare, else it is just your word, which means nothing to me.

I can do that, what would you like to hear?

I don't think I have ever heard a cover version that was better than the original.

You prefer Gloria Jones' version of Tainted Love to Soft Cell's? Interesting.

Not to mention that it lacks the whole non-musical context of the time the original was recorded.

That's a bit irrelevant these days, given that music hasn't progressed much in 30 years or more, although you do have to cut older songs a lot of slack over their production quality.

There is no real bass line in Sweet Dreams in my view.

Not a "bass line", a bassline, the rhythm that underpins the part, sometimes the whole song.

There are good reasons why so many people still like the music of the 80s. Why fix something that ain't broken? That whole idea that music must be innovative is unrealistic and applies to only a small percentage of music. And much of that innovative share is not even good.

First of all, I didn't say live only. As I said before, live is indeed easier because the sound quality doesn't matter much, people just want to yell along, throw their bras etc. ^^
But in the studio a lot of people still have old synths and they use them.
Why should I find a live videa from 1988? Here is one of a live Talk Talk performance from 1993, you can see that they were still using the Jupiter 8, even live.


This one actually is from 88, looks like a Prophet in combination with an Emulator, at 2:36.


In theory a DX7 is better than its reputation, yes, but in reality programming it was not exactly intuitive or user-friendly, which is why so many people used the factory presets.

I would like to hear your Sweet Dreams cover.

I don't like either version of Tainted Love. But like many people I knew the cover version first, which is not how it should be, so to speak.

What is a "bassline" supposed to be? There is a genre called bassline, but that can't be it. You said you were looking for a patch for the bassline, so you must be talking about a specific instrument in the original. I have never heard the term bassline used for the rhythm as you claim.

[BONES]

There are good reasons why so many people still like the music of the 80s. Why fix something that ain't broken?

Why not strive to make it even better? I certainly can't see any point in just rehashing it as it was. Do you think the original artists from those days still use the same instruments? Of course not, they used the best that was available back then and today they continue to use the best available. e.g. When Ultravox toured in 2010 and 2012, they used softsynths for everything, even Billy Currie's amazing Odyssey solos he did using GForce Oddity and a Novation MIDI controller -

That whole idea that music must be innovative is unrealistic and applies to only a small percentage of music. And much of that innovative share is not even good.

I don't think you know what innovation means. I'd agree that the pursuit of originality is a waste of time but there is no reason you can't take your own style and apply it to existing music. Here's a great example of that. You may prefer the original but that doesn't mean this version isn't worth having as well -

First of all, I didn't say live only. As I said before, live is indeed easier because the sound quality doesn't matter much, people just want to yell along, throw their bras etc.

That's a bit harsh (and mostly wrong). After all, producers spend countless hours trying to capture that same energy and feel, often at the expense of musical perfection. I'm not like that, I quantise the shit out of everything and spend hours manually snapping notes to the grid.

But in the studio a lot of people still have old synths and they use them.

No they don't.

Here is one of a live Talk Talk performance from 1993, you can see that they were still using the Jupiter 8, even live.

Yeah but that's a guy who didn't like using synthesisers and stopped using them in the studio long before that. He is well known for saying he only used them because it was the only way he could afford to do what he wanted to do at the time.

This one actually is from 88, looks like a Prophet in combination with an Emulator, at 2:36.

And which one is actually being played? And on the other side of the stage is a guy playing a DX-7, with a D-50 on the stand above it.

I would like to hear your Sweet Dreams cover.

I thought you'd probably pick that. It's not quite ready to go yet, although I made some good progress on it last night. What I might do is put together a bit of a medley, a few bars of the originals and my versions together, so you can hear the difference.

I don't like either version of Tainted Love. But like many people I knew the cover version first, which is not how it should be, so to speak.

Even though the original was a B-side, I somehow knew the original before I ever heard Soft Cell's version. Their version ain't no Sex Dwarf but it is a damned good pop song, well executed.

What is a "bassline" supposed to be?

The bass in a song like Ultravox's Sleepwalk is what I think of as a "bassline", whereas the bass in Yazoo's Don't Go or John Foxx's Underpass is just a bass part. That's not a textbook definition, just the way I use the conjoined word. A bassline is something you wouldn't play, you'd sequence it or use a synth's arpeggiator, unless you were Our Daughter's Wedding, of course -

[revvy]

Nm

[BONES]

This is a set of covers that are mostly better in every way than the originals -
https://handfulofsnowdrops.bandcamp.com ... collection

[AnX]

This is a set of covers that are mostly better in every way than the originals -
https://handfulofsnowdrops.bandcamp.com ... collection

listened to a few i knew

100 years is not better, its weak, very weak

same with Lovesog, sterile, sounds like a midi file

watch me bleed - way too clean, and sounds more like a tribute than a cover (or a poor impersonation)

none of them sound like the artist has tried to put their own twist on it, not impressed in the least

[vurt]

better than the original?
ok.

[rezoneight]

I listened to the three that AnX mentioned and listened to the originals. I don't think any of these tracks are better than the originals. Not sure I'd go as far as "sounds like a midi file" for Lovesong but all of these tracks the EQ is just wrong. Way too much high frequency on every one. Very harsh. I think the guy made a decent attempt but if you're going to tackle a song like Lovesong, which is a classic late 80s tune, you better try pretty hard.

[e-crooner]

There are good reasons why so many people still like the music of the 80s. Why fix something that ain't broken?

Why not strive to make it even better? I certainly can't see any point in just rehashing it as it was. Do you think the original artists from those days still use the same instruments? Of course not, they used the best that was available back then and today they continue to use the best available. e.g. When Ultravox toured in 2010 and 2012, they used softsynths for everything, even Billy Currie's amazing Odyssey solos he did using GForce Oddity and a Novation MIDI controller -

That whole idea that music must be innovative is unrealistic and applies to only a small percentage of music. And much of that innovative share is not even good.

I don't think you know what innovation means. I'd agree that the pursuit of originality is a waste of time but there is no reason you can't take your own style and apply it to existing music. Here's a great example of that. You may prefer the original but that doesn't mean this version isn't worth having as well -

First of all, I didn't say live only. As I said before, live is indeed easier because the sound quality doesn't matter much, people just want to yell along, throw their bras etc.

That's a bit harsh (and mostly wrong). After all, producers spend countless hours trying to capture that same energy and feel, often at the expense of musical perfection. I'm not like that, I quantise the shit out of everything and spend hours manually snapping notes to the grid.

But in the studio a lot of people still have old synths and they use them.

No they don't.

Here is one of a live Talk Talk performance from 1993, you can see that they were still using the Jupiter 8, even live.

Yeah but that's a guy who didn't like using synthesisers and stopped using them in the studio long before that. He is well known for saying he only used them because it was the only way he could afford to do what he wanted to do at the time.

This one actually is from 88, looks like a Prophet in combination with an Emulator, at 2:36.

And which one is actually being played? And on the other side of the stage is a guy playing a DX-7, with a D-50 on the stand above it.

I would like to hear your Sweet Dreams cover.

I thought you'd probably pick that. It's not quite ready to go yet, although I made some good progress on it last night. What I might do is put together a bit of a medley, a few bars of the originals and my versions together, so you can hear the difference.

I don't like either version of Tainted Love. But like many people I knew the cover version first, which is not how it should be, so to speak.

Even though the original was a B-side, I somehow knew the original before I ever heard Soft Cell's version. Their version ain't no Sex Dwarf but it is a damned good pop song, well executed.

What is a "bassline" supposed to be?

The bass in a song like Ultravox's Sleepwalk is what I think of as a "bassline", whereas the bass in Yazoo's Don't Go or John Foxx's Underpass is just a bass part. That's not a textbook definition, just the way I use the conjoined word. A bassline is something you wouldn't play, you'd sequence it or use a synth's arpeggiator, unless you were Our Daughter's Wedding, of course -

Why? Because I don't witness music getting better, to the contrary. Most of the big artists of the 80s are just shadows of their former selves, even if they still make music.
I never liked Ultravox, but I do remember the name from the 80s, but today?!

Never heard of Krupps (my mom used to have a coffee machine from Krups, though ), Metallica I have heard of, but I don't remember any of their songs, it's like a musical parallel universe to me.

Well, the singer of Talk Talk was not their keyboarder. And when Talk Talk abandoned their Jupiter 8-based sound, they kind of disappeared into a tiny niche.

The keyboarder of Grover Washington Jr. does not travel with synths he won't use. Which synth a keyboarder plays at any given moment depends on the song, on the studio version most of all. For the next song he might have played the Prophet and not the Emulator.
And it shows that people did combine analog synths with the newer digital and sample-based ones.

Post your Sweet Dreams cover here once it's finished I know that song so well, I used to have that album on cassette when it was released.

Regarding cover versions, I noticed that the best ones are the ones that are so different from the original that one hardly recognizes them. Like with the cover of the Tears for Fears song Mad World. If they had tried to make a cover with more modern instruments, but the same vibe, it would never have reached the original.

To me the non-musical context is very important. One of my favorite songs has always been Bobby Caldwell's What you won't do for love. Whenever I hear it, it makes me feel happy and triggers memories of that time. But he himself did a cover version 20 years later, and while it sounds much more modern with synths and everything, it doesn't do anything for me because everything is associated with that very sound and feel of the original:



vs



I see what you mean, but that seems to be your very own definition of terms, I don't think those definitions are used by others. Also, now you are using the word 'bass part' instead of 'bass line'.

To me personally a bass line (with or without space) is a bit longer and more intricate and maybe less consistent than a bass pattern/sequence from an arp or sequencer. In that original Caldwell song above that is a bass line to me. Sembello's Maniac is kind of the opposite:



Other terms might be bass melody, bass phrase or bass riff, but at the end of the day who cares what it's called as long as the woofer moves

[rezoneight]

Why? Because I don't witness music getting better, to the contrary. Most of the big artists of the 80s are just shadows of their former selves, even if they still make music.
I never liked Ultravox, but I do remember the name from the 80s, but today?!

Midge Ure, the lead singer of Ultravox, still tours (well....not currently given the pandemic and is still making albums.

I don't get "I don't witness music getting better". What exactly does "better" mean? There is a ton of great music being made every day out there.

To me the non-musical context is very important. One of my favorite songs has always been Bobby Caldwell's What you won't do for love. Whenever I hear it, it makes me feel happy and triggers memories of that time. But he himself did a cover version 20 years later, and while it sounds much more modern with synths and everything, it doesn't do anything for me because everything is associated with that very sound and feel of the original:



vs

Personally I like the Go West version the best

I see what you mean, but that seems to be your very own definition of terms, I don't think those definitions are used by others. Also, now you are using the word 'bass part' instead of 'bass line'.

To me personally a bass line (with or without space) is a bit longer and more intricate and maybe less consistent than a bass pattern/sequence from an arp or sequencer. In that original Caldwell song above that is a bass line to me. Sembello's Maniac is kind of the opposite:



Other terms might be bass melody, bass phrase or bass riff, but at the end of the day who cares what it's called as long as the woofer moves

Just to note: that song is basically Synthwave before there was a Synthwave.

To me, the bass part is the bass line (or bassline) or whatever the hell you want to call it. Different words for the same thing. If someone asked you to play the bass line from Maniac you'd know exactly what they're talking about. Same thing if they said bass part.

[rezoneight]

Now here is someone making that Caldwell tune into their own.

[e-crooner]

Interesting
But what's with her hair?

[imrae]

Cover versions better than the original? Easy:

[BertKoor]

Cover versions better than the original? Easy:

BandInaBox on the run...

[thecontrolcentre]

Cover version that's better than the original? Easy ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHCfZTRGiI

[BONES]

Because I don't witness music getting better, to the contrary. Most of the big artists of the 80s are just shadows of their former selves, even if they still make music.

Depends. The Stranglers are just as good live as they ever were, at least they were until Dave Greenfield died earlier in the year, and their last few albums have been terrific. I daresay they will call it quits now. New Model Army are still pumping out great albums, as are Killing Joke (when they get around to it). The last album from The Cars was right up there with their best work, although with Ric Ocasek gone I imagine they are done now, too. I saw Gang of Four about a year ago and that was one of the best live shows I've ever been to in my life. It's only a couple of years since I saw the B-52s, Cyndi Lauper, Blondie, Simple Minds and Devo and those bands/artists are still putting on great live shows and making decent new music, too. Same for PiL, Buzzcocks, The Damned, Nik Kershaw and Kim Wilde, when I saw them 4 or 5 years ago. A lot of them put younger bands to shame.

I never liked Ultravox, but I do remember the name from the 80s, but today?!

You don't have to like them to acknowledge their legacy, Without Ultravox, Gary Numan would never have looked at a synthesiser and if it wasn't fo rGary Numan, half the music you like now might never have been made. Ultravox's last album, 2012's Brilliant, is one of their best.

Never heard of (Die) Krupps (my mom used to have a coffee machine from Krups, though ), Metallica I have heard of, but I don't remember any of their songs, it's like a musical parallel universe to me.

Not my thing at all, either, but I've noticed over the years how bad their production usually is. And they are fun songs to sing along to at the top of you lungs.

Well, the singer of Talk Talk was not their keyboarder. And when Talk Talk abandoned their Jupiter 8-based sound, they kind of disappeared into a tiny niche.

For a start, Mark Hollis was Talk talk, the other guys were just passengers. As for success, their most successful single was Life's What You Make It, from The Colour of Spring, and it is mostly piano, guitar and drums.

And it shows that people did combine analog synths with the newer digital and sample-based ones.

Or maybe it just captures a moment in time before he'd had time to sample the Prophet into the EMUlator?

I noticed that the best ones are the ones that are so different from the original that one hardly recognizes them. Like with the cover of the Tears for Fears song Mad World. If they had tried to make a cover with more modern instruments, but the same vibe, it would never have reached the original.

I tend to see that kind of thing as disrespectful to the original, like they were too lazy to write their own lyrics or something. In the case of Mad World, though, they've just taken the vibe from the intro of the original and let it run all the way through. When I do covers, I don't like to screw around with them too much. I try to retain the essence of the original but give it my own treatment. Interestingly, I find that a lot of the MIDI files I use to get started are the same - they'll have extra parts that weren't in the original or a different arrangement. It's kinda cool that even my starting points aren't just slavish recreations.

To me the non-musical context is very important.

To me it is utterly irrelevant. Listening to Alien Sex Fiend's "It" takes me instantly back to driving on a specific road, through a specific suburb of Brisbane in 1987 and listening to Wire's first comeback album, The Ideal Copy, takes me back to driving through the front gates of Enoggera Barracks in Brisbane but that doesn't make me like the music on those album any more or less. For me, music is more important than any events in my life, it transcends all of it and my favourite music is the best music, music that's so good it makes me forget about everything else and, therefore, has no specific memories attached to it.