KVR Audio

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:04 am

revvy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:43 am
rod_zero wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:02 pm

a lot of people complaining are the same that have no problem giving their money to apple, go figure.

Exactly. The only people allowed to complain are Live users who run Windows.

Don't worry, they will.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:29 am

SLiC wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:34 am Having now had chance to use 11 for a short time I have to say I think it is superb, it’s like a new DAW for me. The 10.1 update and 11 pretty much give me everything I want, I honestly don’t know what I would need adding in terms of big new features, just improvements to what’s there (the browser etc) and make it snappier loading things.

11 has certainly caught up with Bitwig for headline features cancelling out some bitwig advantages like MPE and multi editing. It has retrospective midi, groove extract, audio to midi, automation curves etc and now comping, probability, scene follow actions etc. It’s certainly set a high bar for Bitwig 4

I've been playing with 11 since it came out and it is fantastic, but some things are still hard to accept, e.g. how there's no track mode for piano roll or audio editor, how modulation works, how there's no mixer in arrangement view and how session cannot be rotated 90°. Even small and fairly new - for Bitwig - of stretching MIDI and audio clips right on the timeline. You can't do that with MIDI at all in Live and for audio warp needs to be enabled first. All small things, really. But it's hard to not have them after one has gotten used to them being there.

But Capture is awesome, so is comping, or step input or scene follow actions.

Rivanni · Post by **Rivanni** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:05 pm

antic604 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:29 am I've been playing with 11 since it came out and it is fantastic, but some things are still hard to accept, e.g. how there's no track mode for piano roll or audio editor, how modulation works, how there's no mixer in arrangement view and how session cannot be rotated 90°. Even small and fairly new - for Bitwig - of stretching MIDI and audio clips right on the timeline. You can't do that with MIDI at all in Live and for audio warp needs to be enabled first. All small things, really. But it's hard to not have them after one has gotten used to them being there.

Not all of this is quite true.
You can show the Mixer in Arrangement by opening a second window. Not ideal but it works. Especially if you have two monitors, providing you a large arrangement area where space is not taken up by a mixer.

MIDI stretching is possible in the detail view.
You can stretch audio in Arrangement.

revvy · Post by **revvy** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:16 pm

machinesworking wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:04 am
revvy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:43 am
rod_zero wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:02 pm

a lot of people complaining are the same that have no problem giving their money to apple, go figure.

Exactly. The only people allowed to complain are Live users who run Windows.
Don't worry, they will.

Good for them

Seriously though, I have been happy to give money to Apple in the last ten years in the form of 2 iMacs and Logic Pro X. Fail to see the underlying mechanism here that would invalidate any criticism I have of Ableton.

Not that I really do, pretty much convinced that my upgrading from L9 Suite to L11 Suite is worth it.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:38 pm

Rivanni wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:05 pm
antic604 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:29 am I've been playing with 11 since it came out and it is fantastic, but some things are still hard to accept, e.g. how there's no track mode for piano roll or audio editor, how modulation works, how there's no mixer in arrangement view and how session cannot be rotated 90°. Even small and fairly new - for Bitwig - of stretching MIDI and audio clips right on the timeline. You can't do that with MIDI at all in Live and for audio warp needs to be enabled first. All small things, really. But it's hard to not have them after one has gotten used to them being there.
Not all of this is quite true.
You can show the Mixer in Arrangement by opening a second window. Not ideal but it works. Especially if you have two monitors, providing you a large arrangement area where space is not taken up by a mixer.

MIDI stretching is possible in the detail view.
You can stretch audio in Arrangement.

Which means all of this is true

- you can't see mixer with Arrangement, because even in 2nd window it will be with Session
- you can't stretch MIDI clip in Arrangement

Rivanni · Post by **Rivanni** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:36 pm

Nope, you wrote you cannot stretch midi at all. That's not true. And you can change the second window so it's a mixer only. But I like Bitwigs way too.

You know, Live and Bitwig are different. You could make a very long list of what Live does better and vice versa. In the end we choose the DAW that ticks most boxes. In the meantime we can only hope that the developers copy some good things from other DAWs.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Live was always designed to toggle with TAB between session and arrange, I don't find it a hardship. I also have mixing control mapped to my hardware, I never really got used to any on screen mixers or using a mouse for mixing (Probably bas I am sat in front of an X32!

I still love Bitwig, always worth having for the modulation system and the grid along, but I have to say I have enjoyed working with midi and audio more in Live 11 more- comping just makes such a big difference to me...I would be bouncing stems out to use in Studio One normally to add vocals and guitar, I can stay in Live for this now.

El°HYM · Post by **El°HYM** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:44 pm

Why not just use both, each for what it is and what it is better for? Or, why not let Bitwig do TheGrid #vst & start selling that to All the Ableton Heads. Many options here, actually. Live 11 is a pretty great #update imho, especially for Ambient & generative stuff etc.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:13 pm

El°HYM wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:44 pm Why not just use both, each for what it is and what it is better for?

I do

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:19 pm

Rivanni wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:36 pmNope, you wrote you cannot stretch midi at all. That's not true.

Ok, I see how I might've not been clear. I said:

"...stretching MIDI and audio clips right on the timeline. You can't do that with MIDI at all in Live and for audio warp needs to be enabled first..."

The 2nd part was continuation of "on the timeline", meaning one can't stretch MIDI on timeline at all. Which I guess is true?

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:26 pm

El°HYM wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:44 pmWhy not just use both, each for what it is and what it is better for? Or, why not let Bitwig do TheGrid #vst & start selling that to All the Ableton Heads. Many options here, actually. Live 11 is a pretty great #update imho, especially for Ambient & generative stuff etc.

No, I refuse to use 2+ DAWs on sinlge project, that's why I want one of them to be so much ahead of the other, that I can easily drop the latter.

For now, I have - and love! - both and use them interchangeably: Live wins in terms of (simple) MIDI, audio & automation editing, but Bitwig commands a lead when it comes to working with device chains, modulation, sound design, mixing.

We're spoiled with awesome tools we have at out disposal

Rivanni · Post by **Rivanni** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:43 pm

antic604 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:19 pm
Rivanni wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:36 pmNope, you wrote you cannot stretch midi at all. That's not true.
Ok, I see how I might've not been clear. I said:

"...stretching MIDI and audio clips right on the timeline. You can't do that with MIDI at all in Live and for audio warp needs to be enabled first..."

The 2nd part was continuation of "on the timeline", meaning one can't stretch MIDI on timeline at all. Which I guess is true?

Ah I see. Yes that's true.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:48 pm

Bitwig has this (see below) but only in the latest betas, so its not officially out yet

Its a useful feature, but not as useful as comping for me! You could go mad comparing Bitwig and Live!

''Free Content Scaling. Whatever is selected in the timeline can now be stretched directly. Just select a bunch of notes, and then ALT-drag the right-hand boundary to scale them relative to the left edge (or vice versa). Same deal with audio events or clips or any time selection. Or type in a percentage, if you need precision.''

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:57 pm

SLiC wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:48 pm...You could go mad comparing Bitwig and Live!

I'm already there

El°HYM · Post by **El°HYM** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:58 pm

antic604 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:26 pm
El°HYM wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:44 pmWhy not just use both, each for what it is and what it is better for? Or, why not let Bitwig do TheGrid #vst & start selling that to All the Ableton Heads. Many options here, actually. Live 11 is a pretty great #update imho, especially for Ambient & generative stuff etc.
No, I refuse to use 2+ DAWs on sinlge project, that's why I want one of them to be so much ahead of the other, that I can easily drop the latter.

For now, I have - and love! - both and use them interchangeably: Live wins in terms of (simple) MIDI, audio & automation editing, but Bitwig commands a lead when it comes to working with device chains, modulation, sound design, mixing.

We're spoiled with awesome tools we have at out disposal

Where did you read that I suggested 2+ DAWs on a single project? The rest you wrote, I totally agree to.

Live 11 - Many bitter comments on their Facebook