Vital - Released

[PieBerger]

I'm a macro fiend, I find them invaluable especially working with Push/Live. I have all of my synths saved in Rack format, with any macros assigned to the rack, so that anything from simple, single filter cutoff sweeps, to one knob chaos is quickly and easily available for hands on control on the Push via macro modulation assignments within a synth.

[fisherKing]

We are indeed clearly very different.

It also definitely would take me longer than ten seconds to do something interesting with the modwheel. I know this because I was doing just that with a soon to be announced synth I am beta testing that at this current stage it doesn't have much factory presets.

Playing and mixing clearly are part of me delivering a finished product to my clients. That indeed is necessary.

DataB asked. I compose/produce jingles, ads and music for tv and multimedia. I think your market does not include me and that is fine. Can't please everyone.

@Tek, for me consistency counts whether it is a free patch or not. If the rest of the factory patches have xy assignments and tagging, then I too would have not included patches whether they were free or not to the factory bank.

Ymmv
Rsp

i still don't get it (but i'll drop it after this post). how many plugins/patches do you use in a project, that you can't add a modulation path to one? and if, for example, the modulation wheel in a patch is set up for vibrato, and you want it to change to the filter... don't you still have to do that?

that's the whole point, that we're not using preset-only plugins. if you're using ONE sound in a particular project that you need to add a modulation wheel routing to... just do it. expecting soundset designers to anticipate all of your needs seems... unrealistic.

[zvenx]

Eric Persing, Scott Frankfurt, the Rest of the Spectrasonics team, BigTone, Himalaya, Sound Author, Howard Scarr, Arovane, Josef Hollo,Jerry Kovarsky,Skippy Lehmkuhl etc etc etc, they are lots of sound developers whose patches are 98% there for me....yes sometimes I do have to tweak an envelope or filter cut off, resonance tweak, octave shift etc etc.... but I have never in over 25 years of doing this professionally had to remap a modwheel, or macro for any of those sound developers patches..not once.... I let what their macros, modwheels etc inspire me to do what I am writing and playing.
rsp

[revvy]

Gotta be mod wheel assignment f'sure. My main keyboard is a Nord, love my mod wheel.

Rest of the stuff like macros is optional for me, personally.

[ThomasHelzle]

I don't think it's about if you can add the modulation yourself or not.
For me it's about value.
The "In the Mix" presets would never have been worth their claimed 15$ (especially compared to Vital for 20$ in the presale, that felt like a bad joke) since they weren't very well worked out.
I would rate them as maybe 2-5$ worth if even that.
(And I don't complain here, the deal was good anyway ).

I don't think it's about slapping a filter cutoff on the modwheel, but sitting down with a sound and feel out where it can go with different settings altered or modulated. Push it harder with a distortion, but check in what range it sounds good, make it darker with a filter, but also test it out across the range to see how you have to map it to make it great.
You have to actually play the thing for a while to see if it's musical and what could be interesting to do with it.
Such presets are worth my while, since I may not be able to just do them myself.
I don't need somebody sitting down and put a filter on a sawtooth...
That indeed I can do myself if I ever need to.
The worth is in the subtleties, in the depth, in the versatility.
If the descriptions add tips for usage and other things to try (like in many u-he presets) that isn't just a sound preset but I learn something on the way and get inspired myself to go further.

Sure you can create the 5 millionth 808 drum but making one that really has a soul, that's art.

Cheers,

Tom

[zvenx]

One again Tom said what I am thinking way better than I did or could.
I actually like the sounds of many of In the Mix presets, but yes, I found them 'lazy'..... I emailed him about it and he had a different philosophy about it. Which is fine, I just know I would never buy any of his presets again, different point of view than mine. I feel if he spent 25 more minutes per patch they really could have shined.

One of my favourite sound designers, relatively new to the business afaik. His first bank here on kvr a few years ago, I could hear the potential... Great sounds just I didn't think he paid enough attention to real time modulation and playability. He listened to my advice and I think for sure since then, at least for me, he is moved to one of my top 5 sound designers.. (he has actually sent me five of his vital patches that I do hope he one day makes a bank and sells......outstanding work, and I can write music with them without having to tweak much in Vital itself)....even a well loved and known developer around these parts when he did a 2.0 of one of his synths used one of the above mentioned sound designers patches that he commissioned, as THE showpiece for the 2.0... I know for sure he takes way more than 30 minutes for any of his patches....

But yes to each their own... everyone has what they like and don't like, what turns them on and what doesn't, what inspires them and what doesn't...
My original post was basically my pov, that no modwheels is a no go for me right off the bat.
rsp

[ThomasHelzle]

I'm a macro fiend, I find them invaluable especially working with Push/Live. I have all of my synths saved in Rack format, with any macros assigned to the rack, so that anything from simple, single filter cutoff sweeps, to one knob chaos is quickly and easily available for hands on control on the Push via macro modulation assignments within a synth.

Yeah, I start to use that more and more myself.
In Bitwig I have a script for an ICON Platform M with 9 motor faders that auto-attaches to the currently selected device and it's Device Pages. Very nice way of working (and still somehow satisfying to see the faders move ).

I hope Vital will
a.) get more Macros, 8 is the magic number for me there. Maybe like the LFOs and ENVs where more show up if you use them.
b.) get a way to use custom CCs as input. Not Midi-learned but a couple of freely assignable modulators. I for instance use an EWI USB windcontroller and can't directly control stuff with CC2/Breath. Not a severe problem in Bitwig, but a bit strange in such a capable synth.

BTW. I just found out that you can "decouple" Pitchbend from the Pitchwheel by setting PB to 0 for the patch and pitchbending still works with MPE when that is enabled in the advanced settings, so you can use the Pitchwheel for something else...

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

b.) get a way to use custom CCs as input. Not Midi-learned but a couple of freely assignable modulators. I for instance use an EWI USB windcontroller and can't directly control stuff with CC2/Breath. Not a severe problem in Bitwig, but a bit strange in such a capable synth.

BTW. I just found out that you can "decouple" Pitchbend from the Pitchwheel by setting PB to 0 for the patch and pitchbending still works with MPE when that is enabled in the advanced settings, so you can use the Pitchwheel for something else...

Cheers,

Tom

+1 for a freely configured custom CC... same for expression pedal as well as breath

I hadn't noticed one could use the pitchwheel independent of MPE... nice find!

Vital is really fast and fun to use.

[mtytel]

I really don't get why sound designers wouldn't program modwheel.

I didn't require sound designers to program mod wheel though I did require at lest a few ways to control the preset, either through macros or the mod wheel or velocity. A few of the sound designers for Vital chose not to hook up mod wheel and I was totally fine with that because there were plenty of other ways to control their presets.

I understand that if you're coming from a synth that's main use is playing from a keyboard not having mod wheel/velocity mapped seems like an oversight. I see it more as a communication of how the preset was intended for use. If a preset has mod wheel and velocity hooked up it looks like it was designed to be played expressively on a keyboard, if a preset has only macros I use it more as a knob-twiddling exploration of sound.

[Teksonik]

@Tek, for me consistency counts whether it is a free patch or not. If the rest of the factory patches have xy assignments and tagging, then I too would have not included patches whether they were free or not to the factory bank.

Even if it's a great sounding and playing patch as it is ? (not saying mine are just making a point).

Like I said sometimes a good patch is just a good patch and it doesn't really need to do all kinds of modulation acrobatics.

But as I also said that's what the current market wants.

I think sometimes a sound designer judges his work by the number of mod matrix slots they use or in the case of Vital how many little colored circles are present.

With some of Vital's factory patches I find all the modulation options don't really do much for the patch sound wise and in some cases make it sound worse when you start moving Macro knobs.

I don't do EDM patches so maybe that's why I don't see the point of modulation just for modulation's sake. But again that's what the market wants........

[zvenx]

I really don't get why sound designers wouldn't program modwheel.

I didn't require sound designers to program mod wheel though I did require at lest a few ways to control the preset, either through macros or the mod wheel or velocity. A few of the sound designers for Vital chose not to hook up mod wheel and I was totally fine with that because there were plenty of other ways to control their presets.

I understand that if you're coming from a synth that's main use is playing from a keyboard not having mod wheel/velocity mapped seems like an oversight. I see it more as a communication of how the preset was intended for use. If a preset has mod wheel and velocity hooked up it looks like it was designed to be played expressively on a keyboard, if a preset has only macros I use it more as a knob-twiddling exploration of sound.

Got ya.
I assume you know I meant more Universally not specific to Vital.... But yes I am a keyboardist first and foremost.

But as I have you. I hope you do get a % of the sales of presets sold on your website....I already saw two, one costing half of the Pro option of the entire synth.... Yikes.

rsp

[spektralisk]

Interesting discussion about macros guys. It's important for me as well that macros do something more that just simple filter sweep or effect dry/wet etc. I always try to program them to make some deep changes to the sound in my own presets if possible. I really like that Vital has properly implemented Mod Remap feature which allows to program macros to do some wild things.

I will be releasing more of my sound libraries in the future and I always wondered what's people opinion on macro naming scheme. Do you prefer to name the macro after the component that it's controlling or after the effect the is has on overall sound? For example you could name macro that changes the lowpass filer as "Filter" or as "Brightness". I tend to go more towards the second option. However I've been using these approaches interchangeably. Sorry of off-topic.

[zvenx]

@Tek, for me consistency counts whether it is a free patch or not. If the rest of the factory patches have xy assignments and tagging, then I too would have not included patches whether they were free or not to the factory bank.

Even if it's a great sounding and playing patch as it is ? (not saying mine are just making a point).

Like I said sometimes a good patch is just a good patch and it doesn't really need to do all kinds of modulation acrobatics.
...

Of course I do agree that modulation can go overboard.
But to me a great sounding patch without proper modulation is 80-90% there.

I know of at least four companies who have someone who curates patches. That is they will do some final tweaks (like volumes and indeed assign modwheels if not assigned and tagging etc) so that it fits in with the rest of the banks they sell or deliver with the synth.

rsp

[zvenx]

Interesting discussion about macros guys. It's important for me as well that macros do something more that just simple filter sweep or effect dry/wet etc. I always try to program them to make some deep changes to the sound in my own presets if possible. I really like that Vital has properly implemented Mod Remap feature which allows to program macros to do some wild things.

I will be releasing more of my sound libraries in the future and I always wondered what's people opinion on macro naming scheme. Do you prefer to name the macro after the component that it's controlling or after the effect the is has on overall sound? For example you could name macro that changes the lowpass filer as "Filter" or as "Brightness". I tend to go more towards the second option. However I've been using these approaches interchangeably. Sorry of off-topic.

I prefer Brightness personally.
I think that is where companies like the late great Camel Audio excelled.
Afaik they had delivery specs for their macro assignments which made real time modulation on their patches in Alchemy such a joy (even if I wasn't a huge fan of the sound of the engine itself).
rsp

[spektralisk]

Thanks for letting me know.

Yeah exactly, they had sound design guidelines about macro assignments, volume levels etc.

Alchemy is still one of the best for me when it comes to modulation system. That's where I learned to use mod maps to do some deep stuff with macros.