All About MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE)

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pdxindy wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:53 pm
M4L modulators don't do per voice modulation in Live.
yes quite true. but a discussion about bitiwig vs ableton, isn't in my case very meaningful. i own both. there is no discussion between those DAW's.. on my system, and in my workflow...

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tracktion seems to have a habit not to promote their great plugins, or not that visible..

i discovered, but others discovered it before me of course, this special granular synth, wíth MPE, during BF sale and i bought it..

tracktion Delta-V audio Spacecraft

https://www.tracktion.com/products/spacecraft

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WasteLand wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:20 am
pdxindy wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:53 pm
M4L modulators don't do per voice modulation in Live.
yes quite true. but a discussion about bitiwig vs ableton, isn't in my case very meaningful. i own both. there is no discussion between those DAW's.. on my system, and in my workflow...
This is a strange statement to make. Bitwig's modulation system is in every possible way superior with regard to MPE. It *could* be better (right now midifx vst plugins don't work with MPE controllers, for instance) but it is so, so, so much more capable. Just as an example: I have a dual sampler patch in the grid in Bitwig. It has over 450 modulation mappings, a custom sustain pedal modulaiton system, tunable and variable MPE glide response, per voice mappings with interactions between expression sources (ie more pressure increases volume against an attenuated inverse timber modulator) and more. All done per-voice. There is simply no comparison. The results are spectacular and there would be no way to make a comperable patch in Live. VCV, yes, but not Live. A modular environment like the Grid is profoundly and transformatively useful when it comes to making nuanced expressivity using an instrument like a Seaboard or a Linnstrument. Yes: you can do some of this with Cypher or Equator... but with the Grid you can take it quite a bit further. And all that on top of the pretty insanely useful ability to use all that same kind of modulation logic on effect vsts and audio routing as well... so this might be the case for your workflow but that is more of an indication as to how you are working. And you mostly said as much, but I couldn't allow that statement to go without an answer. If you are a player and a sound designer interested in MPE, you would be well off taking a few weeks to really dig into Bitwig. There is more there than you think.

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Noumena wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:28 am
WasteLand wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:20 am
pdxindy wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:53 pm
M4L modulators don't do per voice modulation in Live.
yes quite true. but a discussion about bitiwig vs ableton, isn't in my case very meaningful. i own both. there is no discussion between those DAW's.. on my system, and in my workflow...
This is a strange statement to make. Bitwig's modulation system is in every possible way superior with regard to MPE. It *could* be better (right now midifx vst plugins don't work with MPE controllers, for instance) but it is so, so, so much more capable. Just as an example: I have a dual sampler patch in the grid in Bitwig. It has over 450 modulation mappings, a custom sustain pedal modulaiton system, tunable and variable MPE glide response, per voice mappings with interactions between expression sources (ie more pressure increases volume against an attenuated inverse timber modulator) and more. All done per-voice. There is simply no comparison. The results are spectacular and there would be no way to make a comperable patch in Live. VCV, yes, but not Live. A modular environment like the Grid is profoundly and transformatively useful when it comes to making nuanced expressivity using an instrument like a Seaboard or a Linnstrument. Yes: you can do some of this with Cypher or Equator... but with the Grid you can take it quite a bit further. And all that on top of the pretty insanely useful ability to use all that same kind of modulation logic on effect vsts and audio routing as well... so this might be the case for your workflow but that is more of an indication as to how you are working. And you mostly said as much, but I couldn't allow that statement to go without an answer. If you are a player and a sound designer interested in MPE, you would be well off taking a few weeks to really dig into Bitwig. There is more there than you think.
i shall reply with a longer post. but you are right, it is how i work, as always.
and i have both ableton live 10 suite (next year live 11 suite) and bitwig studio 3.3, yes for the modulation and also the poly grid (never thought i would like so much, having softube modular, reaktor, voltage modular (all with a lot of modules), and VCV rack).
i have bought bitwig when i bought my MPE controllers..

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There is no need to answer. To be honest, I am not a big fan of your vague and rambling posts about this subject. I'm not sure who you're writing them for.

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Hi Peter,

Rafael from ROLI (but in my private capacity here). I'm the principal sound designer there.
Great thread, late to the party.
pnyboer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:33 pm That's a really intriguing idea about the Kontakt setup for MPE - I haven't yet tackled that one. Has anyone here set that up? It seems like it could bump up CPU pretty heavily, since you have to create an instrument for each voice. But I really like the idea, and could be applied to other plugins that are not MPE. It would probably be a bit unwieldy, though, since you'd have separate tracks for each channel!
I had prototyped some of my early 3D sounds back in 2012 in Kontakt (I'm calling them 3D as the 'MPE' term and the midi specification it encompasses, didn't exist back then. And I'm writing '3D' as opposed to '5D' (which is what MPE is) as these sounds were made for the Seaboard GRAND).

It was really time consuming and difficult to set up a patch and setting up of the expression modulation wasn't any easier either.
There were attempts made to make it easier, but I can't go into that.

Regarding CPU. I never paid attention to it as I was working on top of the line iMac, which even today is very capable.

I must say that back in those days, Omnisphere was the one that saved me on so many occasions. Its multitimbral design coupled to the way one multitimbral part can be copied to the remaining ones, just with one click, made patch creation a breeze. Unlike in Kontakt, I could create the patch in the normal, single mode, test it and see if it is playable, and then copy it with one click to make it '3D', and play it polyphonically (with polyphonic pitch-bend)

Thanks for starting this thread.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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Noumena wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:37 am There is no need to answer. To be honest, I am not a big fan of your vague and rambling posts about this subject. I'm not sure who you're writing them for.
i have the same feeling. while your name refers to a noumenal world (immenual kant). and i am very fond of the leserswelt.

you started about the purks, and possibilities about bitiwg, you don't have to explain me what they are. i only stated that ableton live 10 suite is a different "workstation", for other goals and needs.

you want to direct all to bitwig, the MPE capable DAW, with a lot going for, also for MPE, impressive modulation. the big positive thing about bitwig.

which you also can achieve in voltage modular, but again a different workflow.

so the merits the special capabilities of bitwig i don't deny, why else should i buy it?

i am afraid we don't understand eachother. o well. vague and rambling posts, i write out of experience, and perhaps how i work is strange, that does not mean i know the techniques.

that the modulation possibilities are superior to ableton live, does not mean that ableton live is capable of things on its own, or with quite new MPE M4L device called

granurise. or modulat. bitwig lacks global modalution, me thinks, you can overcome this.

but i am not impressed in the way you are, modulation routings in very complex way, i already made before bitwig. and yes bitwig adds a lot. so what i am rambling.

but ok. this is the MPE thread. and a discussion is not bad, but why am i rambling, that i don't have to compare ableton live 10 suite (and next year 11 suite) to bitwig, as which is better, because i use them both, next to cubase pro 11, next reason 11 suite. etc.

so...

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himalaya wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:16 am Hi Peter,

Rafael from ROLI (but in my private capacity here). I'm the principal sound designer there.
Great thread, late to the party.
pnyboer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:33 pm That's a really intriguing idea about the Kontakt setup for MPE - I haven't yet tackled that one. Has anyone here set that up? It seems like it could bump up CPU pretty heavily, since you have to create an instrument for each voice. But I really like the idea, and could be applied to other plugins that are not MPE. It would probably be a bit unwieldy, though, since you'd have separate tracks for each channel!
I had prototyped some of my early 3D sounds back in 2012 in Kontakt (I'm calling them 3D as the 'MPE' term and the midi specification it encompasses, didn't exist back then. And I'm writing '3D' as opposed to '5D' (which is what MPE is) as these sounds were made for the Seaboard GRAND).

It was really time consuming and difficult to set up a patch and setting up of the expression modulation wasn't any easier either.
There were attempts made to make it easier, but I can't go into that.

Regarding CPU. I never paid attention to it as I was working on top of the line iMac, which even today is very capable.

I must say that back in those days, Omnisphere was the one that saved me on so many occasions. Its multitimbral design coupled to the way one multitimbral part can be copied to the remaining ones, just with one click, made patch creation a breeze. Unlike in Kontakt, I could create the patch in the normal, single mode, test it and see if it is playable, and then copy it with one click to make it '3D', and play it polyphonically (with polyphonic pitch-bend)

Thanks for starting this thread.
hello, MPE and kontakt, i want to know more about. there are easy ways to set it up, but perhaps you lose some capabilities, if don't use scripts.
there are MPE capable libraries. third party, some cheap, or not..
they tempt me but i like to use my own samples. for that i still want to look in into the capabilities of kontakt (kontakt could already do it, i have now version 6. i don''t think or don't know, if the scripting capabilities are extended, it is easier to make scripts in kontakt 6).

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WasteLand wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:32 am
hello, MPE and kontakt, i want to know more about. there are easy ways to set it up, but perhaps you lose some capabilities, if don't use scripts.
there are MPE capable libraries. third party, some cheap, or not..
I've used Kontakt for making 'MPE' sounds a long time ago, it was 2013 or so, and I haven't used it for this purpose since. So, I don't know if the situation has improved since then or not. I remember, we had a script from NI at one point to help with the workflow...Ever since Equator came out, my attention was dedicated to it full time, then Cypher2 and Strobe2... So I my knowledge of the latest Kontakt-MPE workflow is not up to date, sadly.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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himalaya wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:25 pm
WasteLand wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:32 am
hello, MPE and kontakt, i want to know more about. there are easy ways to set it up, but perhaps you lose some capabilities, if don't use scripts.
there are MPE capable libraries. third party, some cheap, or not..
I've used Kontakt for making 'MPE' sounds a long time ago, it was 2013 or so, and I haven't used it for this purpose since. So, I don't know if the situation has improved since then or not. I remember, we had a script from NI at one point to help with the workflow...Ever since Equator came out, my attention was dedicated to it full time, then Cypher2 and Strobe2... So I my knowledge of the latest Kontakt-MPE workflow is not up to date, sadly.
someone, o it is Noumena, on page 2, has made some vid's.
of course roli has some examples. the simplest one for each channel an "instrument" (which isn't sometimes a bad idea, i alread wrote something about it here, for instance third or fourth voice with different "routings" for x y z)

yes scripts. didn't very actively search for them. they must be around, by users, maybe NI. a start point.

o well enough to play around with... i am still at version 1 of equator, cypher 2 i also work with. MSoundFactory for samples, and has MPE, is a great alternative. the sampler module isn't that extensive as kontakt, but still.

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ooh, hadn't spotted this new topic (I don't visit kvr so frequently these days), its great to see more interest in MPE.

a while ago, a group of us setup a forum dedicated to 'expressive instruments and controllers', called polyexpression, as we wanted to bring together musicians using these to share their experiences, and help each other.

https://polyexpression.com/

we have over 200 users, between us have experience with every MPE controller and software there is, from the more esoteric (Eigenharp) to popular (Roli), budget to non so budget...
Many of the instruments have dedicated sub-forums, and many of the developers behind them have joined us too.

free for anyone to join thats interested in these expressive instruments and software and hardware that support MPE.

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Noumena wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:40 am My big trick with MPE is that I nearly always map pressure to amplitude. Everywhere that I can I completely bypass the amp envelope and only play it this way. The amount of nuance and control I have over dynamics playing this way is incredible.
For me, assigning pressure to amplitude is only the first step, Very often it's just not enough to make the sound expressive enough. Certain groups of sounds simply demand more than amplitude. Take a woodwind as an example, the stronger the breath (pressure, in our context) the stronger the amplitude and harmonic/tonal make up of the sound.
Take a synth pad as another example. Let's start with a 'dark' pad, the LPF cutoff is half way down. On pressure, I have assigned the amplitude but also a little bit of the LPF cutoff, so that as I press-in, I get more volume level but also a little bit more brightness, not too much. This way the sound feels more alive. Then, on CC74, I could open the filter fully, or maybe do that and at the same time sweep through a HPF, so the sound becomes bright and gets thinned out by the HPF....
However, the real fun starts with stuff like the granular synthesis, where I may not use any amplitude modulation at all. Here, pressure could modulate one set of granular parameters, while CC74 module a different set.


Noumena wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:40 am
My experience with Strobe and Cypher is very different than what is written above. I found the MPE implementation to be ponderous and buggy. Perhaps this has changed. Right now I do almost everything in my homegrown Bitwig Grid based sampler and synth, Pigments2 (which is very good, although I wish it had a lag processor with separate attack/decay controls for pressure smoothing...)
I wonder if you meant Cypher2 and Strobe2, since Cypher and Strobe are not MPE compatible.

Also what sort of issue have you experienced? I'm asking as I have spent a lot of time with these, (a couple of thousands of presets made) and the MPE implementation works perfectly and is an example of one of the most powerful implementations there is, along with Equator2.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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Rivanni wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:49 am
WasteLand wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:20 pm [
aftertouch that is according the midi spec the term for polyphonic aftertouch, many developers, of hardware and software use different terms, and beside MPE, aftertouch is always meant to be: channel pressure.
Aftertouch is not always polyphonic.
Polyphonic aftertouch is not the same as Channel pressure.
Pressure starts at zero and goes to the max value. Aftertouch does not start at zero but after a note is played, hence AFTERtouch. Most of the times this last touch is a jump in value instead of a gradually changing value like with pressure.
'Aftertouch' does start at 'zero'. It starts at a value of '0' and goes up to 127. Perhaps what you meant to say is that aftertouch does not start at the actual note-on, which is what happens with continuous-pressure of MPE controllers. But you are right about that 'jump' in values when using aftertouch. This is yet another advantage of MPE controllers, this smooth, continuous-pressure response. If the synth engine supports expression-curves (or mod-maps) it is also possible to imitate the response of the old-fashioned aftertouch with deep exponential shapes (with an initial flat, no-modulation zone). So this way it is possible to have smooth, continuous pressure or aftertouch.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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udk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:33 pm Hi there,
First: Sorry for my bad Englisch ...
I wonder why no one spends effort on optimizing realism with existing breath Controllers like Yamaha WX7 and physical modelling of woodwind or brass emulating software. For me this is the first place where MPE has been foregotten or is never used as it could be, or isn‘t it? Thank you for hints on this special subtopic!
Best regards
Udk
As some people have already mentioned the SWAM engine from Audio Modelling has superb instruments that work extremely well on MPE controllers. You get a good set of acoustic instruments like strings, woodwinds, reeds, etc. They really sound great and work so well, even when played as monophonic sounds.

As to the larger question why we don't see more Physical Modelling synths that support MPE, I venture a guess, that it's mostly due to the fact that Physical Modelling is not trivial to develop. There are many PM synths that fail at the kind of realism one would expect from this synthesis type. The SWAM engine is really one of the exceptions here, but then again this is a hybrid engine that has some nice tricks up its sleeve. The bowed string sound in SWAM is so realistic and playable, much, much better than a bow string sound in AAS String Studio, as an example. AAS has been developing physical modelling engines for so many years, but their bowed string, such a 'big', in-demand sound, is not really that nice. So this is an example of the difficulties.

Then, there are patents relating to some Physical Modelling techniques which may prevent some from using these methods in the first place. If I'm not mistaken Yamaha holds such patents (Stanford-licensed physical modelling techniques).

Anyway, I just wanted to illustrate that to create a very realistic Physical Modelling engine, one that maybe specialises in a sax or bowed strings, and others, and one that would satisfy musicians, is a huge challenge.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

Post

himalaya wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:16 am Hi Peter,

Rafael from ROLI (but in my private capacity here). I'm the principal sound designer there.
Great thread, late to the party.
pnyboer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:33 pm That's a really intriguing idea about the Kontakt setup for MPE - I haven't yet tackled that one. Has anyone here set that up? It seems like it could bump up CPU pretty heavily, since you have to create an instrument for each voice. But I really like the idea, and could be applied to other plugins that are not MPE. It would probably be a bit unwieldy, though, since you'd have separate tracks for each channel!
I had prototyped some of my early 3D sounds back in 2012 in Kontakt (I'm calling them 3D as the 'MPE' term and the midi specification it encompasses, didn't exist back then. And I'm writing '3D' as opposed to '5D' (which is what MPE is) as these sounds were made for the Seaboard GRAND).

It was really time consuming and difficult to set up a patch and setting up of the expression modulation wasn't any easier either.
There were attempts made to make it easier, but I can't go into that.

Regarding CPU. I never paid attention to it as I was working on top of the line iMac, which even today is very capable.

I must say that back in those days, Omnisphere was the one that saved me on so many occasions. Its multitimbral design coupled to the way one multitimbral part can be copied to the remaining ones, just with one click, made patch creation a breeze. Unlike in Kontakt, I could create the patch in the normal, single mode, test it and see if it is playable, and then copy it with one click to make it '3D', and play it polyphonically (with polyphonic pitch-bend)

Thanks for starting this thread.
I did have an interaction with Eric on FaceBook and at first he was reluctant to include MPE compatibly in Omnisphere because of what you’re talking about, but after a few back and fourths he saw the value in adding it and he did say that he’d add it to future revisions. That was a while ago, though and nothing so far. I’d love for it to happen, though.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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