What Can Hive/Sylenth/Diva Do Uniquely?

[Urs]

The U-he stuff seems to be made by that same guy that once made a delay with 100+ parameters that no one wanted to buy because, who has hours on end to tinker with 100+ delay parameters unless you are a VST developer? The U-he synths are very warm sounding (very reminiscent of old 80s sounds to me) but IMO, really meant for VST synth geek tweakers.

The human brain is a marvellous thing. It can accomplish so much. It is my belief that spoon-feeding it functionality makes for good first impressions, but hardly for long term satisfaction. So we don't. We're creating instruments that want to be learned and understood. Once mastered, they keep giving.

[telecode]

The U-he stuff seems to be made by that same guy that once made a delay with 100+ parameters that no one wanted to buy because, who has hours on end to tinker with 100+ delay parameters unless you are a VST developer? The U-he synths are very warm sounding (very reminiscent of old 80s sounds to me) but IMO, really meant for VST synth geek tweakers.

The human brain is a marvellous thing. It can accomplish so much. It is my belief that spoon-feeding it functionality makes for good first impressions, but hardly for long term satisfaction. So we don't. We're creating instruments that want to be learned and understood. Once mastered, they keep giving.

Urs, you are a cool guy and you make great synths. But I do feel they are a particular tool for a particular customer base. Wishing you lots of success with this promo and am looking forward to what Zebra 3 will bring to the table.

[nirm123]

I love H-he

[telecode]

90% of my sound design knowledge came from reading word by word (and multiple times) u-he manuals.

True. I also read them and tried those tips in the other VSTs I have. They work in those too.

[BONES]

So what you say is that Obsession or Legend and JP6k sound similar enough not to make any worthwhile difference.

Absolutely. I could play you a dozen songs using one or the other of them and you wouldn't know which was which. There are things that make each different but the Venn diagram of possible sounds they can make would have at least a 90% overlap for each of them. e.g. They are all capable of doing great string pads and I have used each for that very purpose. I've used each for basslines, too, and many other things where I just needed a sound to do a job (which is most sounds in an arrangement).

You know this as well as I do so to say that they are anything other than mostly the same, with a few little differences, is stupid. Legend's filter limits it when it comes to big resonant basslines and JP6K only has a Supersaw oscillator, which limits it somewhat, but it's filter means it can do some little 1% things the others can't. But outside of those things, they are largely interchangeable.

... really meant for VST synth geek tweakers. People that are willing and have the time to spend hours on end tweaking settings and parameters to get "the sound" they are looking for. Sound designer and synth patch designer types.

I don't think that's a problem unique to U-He. I find myself battling all the time with those types on the Synapse beta team. And THAT is the problem - most of the people on the beta teams are the people the dev wants to make the factory patches so they are overwhelmingly those "VST synth geek tweakers". They are the people giving the dev's feedback so they are the people the devs end up doing the work for. The rest of us just have to live with it. Those guys will never in a million years understand why I would choose JP6K over DUNE, every time, and when I make any suggestions about making things less complicated, I inevitably get shouted down. Although, in all modesty, I'm pretty sure the only reason DUNE has ADSR controls on the front panel is because Dave (Anx) and I agitated for it from the very beginning. But we had a bit more sway with Rich back then than we do these days.

[telecode]

So what you say is that Obsession or Legend and JP6k sound similar enough not to make any worthwhile difference.

Absolutely. I could play you a dozen songs using one or the other of them and you wouldn't know which was which. There are things that make each different but the Venn diagram of possible sounds they can make would have at least a 90% overlap for each of them. e.g. They are all capable of doing great string pads and I have used each for that very purpose. I've used each for basslines, too, and many other things where I just needed a sound to do a job (which is most sounds in an arrangement).

You know this as well as I do so to say that they are anything other than mostly the same, with a few little differences, is stupid. Legend's filter limits it when it comes to big resonant basslines and JP6K only has a Supersaw oscillator, which limits it somewhat, but it's filter means it can do some little 1% things the others can't. But outside of those things, they are largely interchangeable.

... really meant for VST synth geek tweakers. People that are willing and have the time to spend hours on end tweaking settings and parameters to get "the sound" they are looking for. Sound designer and synth patch designer types.

I don't think that's a problem unique to U-He. I find myself battling all the time with those types on the Synapse beta team. And THAT is the problem - most of the people on the beta teams are the people the dev wants to make the factory patches so they are overwhelmingly those "VST synth geek tweakers". They are the people giving the dev's feedback so they are the people the devs end up doing the work for. The rest of us just have to live with it. Those guys will never in a million years understand why I would choose JP6K over DUNE, every time, and when I make any suggestions about making things less complicated, I inevitably get shouted down. Although, in all modesty, I'm pretty sure the only reason DUNE has ADSR controls on the front panel is because Dave (Anx) and I agitated for it from the very beginning. But we had a bit more sway with Rich back then than we do these days.

Yup. I notice there is a bit of VST synth snobbery on some forms. This especially came to surface with this U-he sale. Fanbois blindly preaching and downvoting like mad. It's quite silly really. I demoed the products. They are great. But the bottom line is, there just wasn't enough in those synths to justify dumping what I already know and re-inventing the wheel again and re-learn something new. At this point in my journey, if I am going to spend 10 to 20+ hours learning something new, it would be a hardware synth or an octatrack or something.

[nirm123]

The U-he stuff seems to be made by that same guy that once made a delay with 100+ parameters that no one wanted to buy because, who has hours on end to tinker with 100+ delay parameters unless you are a VST developer?

which delay are you talking about ? Colour Copy is a simple and an intuitive delay.

[BONES]

But the bottom line is, there just wasn't enough in those synths to justify dumping what I already know and re-inventing the wheel again and re-learn something new. At this point in my journey, if I am going to spend 10 to 20+ hours learning something new, it would be a hardware synth or an octatrack or something.

I find this an interesting perspective. Why do you feel you need to spend time learning a new synth? I never do. My knowledge of how synths work will get me 80%-90% of the way there, most of the time, and I can pick the rest up as and when I need to. I don't think I've ever spent more than a few minutes looking up very specific elements of any VSTi in a manual or on line. e.g. When I bought ArcSyn, the only thing I might have needed to actually learn, as in figure out, was the non-standard modulation thingie at the bottom of the GUI. Every other part of ArcSyn is stuff I have in every other synth I own - oscillators, filters, envelopes, LFOs and effects. Two years later, I still haven't needed to use that modulation thingie so I still don't know how it works. One day I might need it, then I'll look it up in the manual. I imagine it will only take me five minutes to get my head around it.

[ghostwhistler]

So I think someoine mentioned Synthmaster. How does that stack up? I've got the demo and it's on something of a sale right now. But do i need every synth under the sun? I can't imagine. What do people think of Synthmaster?

[VELLTONE MUSIC]

Agree it's little overpriced 2021,but still this doesn't stop people to buy and use it

Which, of course, is exactly why it is still so expensive. If people did their research a bit better and found something that offered better value, sales would drop and maybe the price would come down. But he knows he doesn't have to drop the price so he doesn't.

As I mentioned, Sylenth1 still lives largely from the image it built up more than 10 years ago. Which is fine, after all people also have their hardware "heroes", like the Minimoog, or the Virus when it comes to VA. Unlike the Minimoog, Sylenth1 IMO has been exceeded quite a few times by now though. But, you're right of course, as long as people buy, there's no reason to change the price, or develop a successor. The question is, though, what it's like in 5 years from now. Software ages, when there are so many improvements in algorithms the whole time. Sylenth1 already is long in the tooth for me.

Anyway, kind of a pointless discussion. I also use stuff which has been exceeded, when I like the character, and that's the point here. TBH, after having used Spire and some other synths, I never quite got the fuss about Sylenth1 though. Yes, nice supersaw, but, for bass sounds, I definitely wouldn't use it, as there are plugins with much more beef in the low registers. Guess it was a lot more spectacular at the time it came out.

i was at same point 2 years ago making basses with Sylenth1,then realize that when speak about Sylenth1 is about character,not technical parameters you don't have and complexity can't achieve.
Not trying to advertise or sell anything,just try free stuff i upload,especially first few presets and point me another synth that can give you such vibe after 2-3 min of basic design:)
https://app.box.com/s/8myv3toupmlhe66qbdq13sh08yphqr3v

[recursive one]

TBH, after having used Spire and some other synths, I never quite got the fuss about Sylenth1 though. Yes, nice supersaw, but, for bass sounds, I definitely wouldn't use it, as there are plugins with much more beef in the low registers. Guess it was a lot more spectacular at the time it came out.

In my psytrance tracks I almost exclusively use Sylenth for the bass. Psytrance bass is a somewhat specific thing though, it's not very bassy in itself as most of the sub power is provided by the kick and the bass fills the rest of the spectrum but anyway, for this specific bass style Sylenth does amazing job.

I'm not sayning Sylenth is the only synth that can do that, I was getting good results with Hive and Massive X, many people use Serum, but Sylenth always works and I don't feel like reinventing the wheel each time I start a new track.

Also it shines at some of the psytrance-specific lead sounds. And the supersaw is indeed very very nice.

[Ploki]

Yup. I notice there is a bit of VST synth snobbery on some forms. This especially came to surface with this U-he sale. Fanbois blindly preaching and downvoting like mad. It's quite silly really. I demoed the products. They are great. But the bottom line is, there just wasn't enough in those synths to justify dumping what I already know and re-inventing the wheel again and re-learn something new. At this point in my journey, if I am going to spend 10 to 20+ hours learning something new, it would be a hardware synth or an octatrack or something.

Repro is a recreation of 40y old design, so is diva. it's hardly something new. If you can't get around repro and diva, which really are archetypal synths, you don't know synths in general.
(Hive is also pretty much archetypal.)

complex u-he plugins (as in, please read the manual before trying to do anything serious in them)
- Bazille
- A.C.E. to a degree
- Zebra
- MFM2
- Filterscape
- Presswerk full

not complex u-he plugins (and i mean as uncomplex as you need to be an absolute beginner that never ever interfaced with that particular type of plugin (or any audio processor ever) if you need 20+ hours to learn it):
- Uhbik FX
- Hive
- Diva
- Repro
- ColourCopy
- TwangStrom
- Presswerk easy modes
- Satin

I mean, i am a fanboy. But not since the recent NI sale, since a long time ago.
Downvotes are not due to "silly sale fanboys" but due to you simply being wrong with an absurd generalisation that doesn't hold water

I don't think that's a problem unique to U-He. I find myself battling all the time with those types on the Synapse beta team. And THAT is the problem - most of the people on the beta teams are the people the dev wants to make the factory patches so they are overwhelmingly those "VST synth geek tweakers". They are the people giving the dev's feedback so they are the people the devs end up doing the work for. The rest of us just have to live with it. Those guys will never in a million years understand why I would choose JP6K over DUNE, every time, and when I make any suggestions about making things less complicated, I inevitably get shouted down. Although, in all modesty, I'm pretty sure the only reason DUNE has ADSR controls on the front panel is because Dave (Anx) and I agitated for it from the very beginning. But we had a bit more sway with Rich back then than we do these days.

There's a spectrum of complexity. Which u-he synth, sans zebra, is particularly tabbed? Hive is mostly a single-page rocket. A.C.E., even Bazille, are all single-page. Most of relevant DIVA stuff is on the front page.

If U-he interfaces are too complex, there's Nexus, Softube Statement Lead/Monoment Bass/Parallels and other "3-knob" synths.

I agree with you tho, I've demoed Dune and it didn't suite me workflow-wise, and the complexity didn't bring me anything worthwhile enough to invest myself in it.

[Urs]

I comfort myself with the thought that people who see our designs as somehow "having a lot in common", i.e. cast general verdicts on all of them, probably simply want to see them that way. From my perspective they are as different as they possibly could be, in features, workflow and implementation. But yes, we avoid things that we see as design flaws, even if they are present - even defining - in very popular synths.

[VELLTONE MUSIC]

People choose emotionally

[BONES]

Some do, not everyone, and that is as it should be. If music isn't about emotion, then I don't know what it's for.

Which u-he synth, sans zebra, is particularly tabbed?

Diva hides a lot of things from the main page, like all the little per voice tweaks. The RePros have multiple tabs in their GUI - Synth, Tweaks, Sequencer (RePro 1) and the Preset Browser. The Tweaks page is particularly annoying with its stupid background that obscures what is actually in there. I also dislike browsers that replace the synth interface. Something like Monoment Bass, with a separate browser window, is way better because they allow you load a preset, quickly try a tweak or two and move onto the next. Both RePros also hide the effects behind the keyboard.

Hive is mostly a single-page

Except for the centre screen, which has four different tabs, and the bottom section, which has 7 different tabs. That's a lot of tabs. Compare that to something like Obsession or Legend, which just have a front and a back panel. Much simpler, although even just flicking between those two gets annoying very quickly. Korg does it way better with ARP Odyssey, where you can choose how much of the UI to see and scroll to extra features if you don't want a big window open all the time. For me, that interface paradigm is the gold standard.

If U-he interfaces are too complex, there's Nexus, Softube Statement Lead/Monoment Bass/Parallels and other "3-knob" synths.

Exactly, synths that sound great and are much easier to work with. Hive and Diva try to appeal to a very broad market and, as a result, contain way too many features that too often get in the way of getting your work done. OTOH, something like bx_oberhausen is only trying to do one thing and is so much easier and more enjoyable to work with, whilst still able to give you high quality sounds. SO those are the synths I like, the ones made for a specific audience, not those trying to be all things to all people.