Why you left Bitwig?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRist
47 posts since 29 Dec, 2019

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:23 am

I agree that Bitwig is a subscription de facto. 1 year is not a suitable update timeline for professional software with a $400 price tag. I prefer a version support model, so that I can get maintenance updates to fix obvious problems even after a year - i.e. compatibility with a newer OS release.

Post purchase, I am not expecting new features. I consider feature set when deciding if I want to buy the software initially, and when I upgrade. I pay a pro price for decent support and maintenance.

Yes, you keep the software in perpetuity, but the support timeline of one year is to short and can force you to pay extra, with ease, unless you are comfortable locking down other pieces of software and your operating platform - particularly on macOS and Linux, where OS updates are more prone to breaking things - to ensure it doesn't break.

Plus, the renewal prices are too high, IMO. Appreciably more expensive than Cubase Pro Updates.

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KVRAF
7485 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:45 am

Trensharo wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:23 am
I agree that Bitwig is a subscription de facto...
How about you upgrade every 2 years? This way it will bring down the annual cost to what Cubase, Studio One, Reason or Live cost to keep up to date and - arguably - you'll get more things added in updates, even just on 1 year.

And if there's an OS upgrade that can break things you can wait it out few months, which you should be doing anyway, not just because of Bitwig.

Oh, and it's not a subscription :)
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
469 posts since 19 Oct, 2020

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:59 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:45 am
Trensharo wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:23 am
I agree that Bitwig is a subscription de facto...
How about you upgrade every 2 years?
Or never update! And if you never buy Bitwig in the first place, you pay even less! :D
If you bought Bitcoins some time ago instead of Bitwig you'd even gained money.

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KVRAF
18000 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:54 am

Trensharo wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:23 am

Plus, the renewal prices are too high, IMO. Appreciably more expensive than Cubase Pro Updates.
I think the cost of staying current with Cubase over the past 5 years has not been less than the cost of staying current with Bitwig. Well, that is assuming Bitwig upgrades at the sale price. ($129 instead of $169). And no reason for anyone to pay the full price.

Bitwig has worked out to about $10/month for me and I have stayed current since my initial purchase. Doesn't seem like some excessive price, but I suppose if someone cannot afford $10/month, then they could feel differently.

KVRian
1264 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Earth

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:49 am

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

Cubase is $60 for a *.5 update one year and $100 for a full version update the next year, so $160 every 2 year. Bitwig is $169 every year to stay current, that's more than double. This also means that staying current in Bitwig at sale price ($129 a year) still ends up more expensive than Cubase at full price ($80 a year).

And at sale prices Cubase is even cheaper, because Cubase sale prices are usually -50%, while Bitwig goes from $169 to $129, which is around -24%.

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KVRAF
7485 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:02 am

Reefius wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:49 am
...at sale prices Cubase is even cheaper, because Cubase sale prices are usually -50%, while Bitwig goes from $169 to $129, which is around -24%.
I wonder why most Bitwig vs. XXX discussions about DAWs end up revolving around money? Is it because people run out of other arguments? :hihi:
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRian
1264 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Earth

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:09 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:02 am
I wonder why most Bitwig vs. XXX discussions about DAWs end up revolving around money? Is it because people run out of other arguments? :hihi:
I was only correcting some terrible math :lol:

But yeah, if it was only about money then everyone would be using a free DAW or Reaper :P

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KVRAF
18000 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:20 am

Reefius wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:49 am
Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.
You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.

Bitwig on the other hand, you can always use the sale price and still stay current and get any new upgrade immediately. That is the difference and why I compared them that way.

In any case, I don't care which one is more or less money. Doesn't matter to me cause the difference is minimal. The cost of keeping either up to date is, IMO, well worth the price. Like I said, Bitwig has worked out to about $10 a month which I consider nothing for one of the most central pieces of my music studio. It is an incidental compared to the overall cost of my studio.

KVRist
389 posts since 10 Mar, 2020

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:21 am

Scoox wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:33 am
If Bitwig does everything Live does, and then more, bigger, faster and better, then Live users would probably consider switching.
Actually Im an Ableton user and its the only DAW I used for years now and I consider switching to Bitwig for 3 simple reasons:

1. Freezing and Flattening is soooooo slow. Bouncing is so much faster in Bitwig
2. The browser in Bitwig and the Ability to open it where Im working with my cursor and just that it opens in the searchbar is sooo much faster than clicking the search bar entering an instrument/effect name and then selecting out of subfolders or click the favourite folders
3. faster, more stability. Maybe its me but I run an i7 Windows computer which is a very clean install bc Im a bit into IT
4. Better solution of visualization of automation

What holds me off switching is that learning a new DAW is a long process.
I really would miss some of Abletons instruments which are essential to my current workflow but I probably will find a workaround while spending time.
Bitwig somehow appeals to me cluttered and the GUI not really tidied up and the stock device visuals are somehow all the same, like a knobs everywhere looking all the same. ImIts hars to explain but I dont really enjoy the Ableton optics but it looks better structured and more minimalistic which I enjoy.

Thats why I probably will wait for V4 and hope for updated visuals or at least skins which could solve my problems maybe

KVRAF
3095 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:36 am

^^^
much faster than clicking the search bar entering an instrument/effect name and then selecting out of subfolders or click the favourite folders
ctrl+f(win) opens a global search in AL and can be reached from anywhere personally can't feel that point too problematic, I miss the mixer from BWS more
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

KVRAF
1626 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:53 am

This is purely personal. For me it's this back and forth between Ableton and Bitwig. I'm sure many others struggle with this like I do, though. Each has very particular strengths and very particular weaknesses; so it goes. Of course, at the end of the day, I can successfully make (potentially 'great') music with either one. But, we're here because the details are important to us.

Reasons I want to use ABLETON:
• The factory FX are incredibly good, and always useful on a regular, every-day basis. I cannot say the same about Bitwig's FX.
• The piano roll is visually clear and fast to use. Bitwig's roll bizarrely makes the notes a pale color, they look 'secondary' to everything around them when they should be the primary focus element, and for whatever reason editing is always, always, slower than it is in Live, even after plenty of 'experience' with it.
• The Warping works as advertised and 99% of the time does what I want, without needing further fiddling. Cannot say the same about Bitwig's, unfortunately.
• I don't feel compelled to dump money into it on an annual basis

Reasons I want to use BITWIG:
• The Modulators, of course! The max stuff in ableton can't touch this, not even close. Just the fact that max devices take absolute control of parameters (the parameters can't be modified after you've assigned control to the max modulator) vs Bitwig's far superior approach of applying relative modulation (so the parameter can still be tweaked, as usual) is a Night and Day difference, wherein Bitwig wins, wins, wins.
• The Grid -- stacks up fine against the mighty Operator and Wavetable, which are excellent, but nowhere near as deep, of course.
• The side-by-side matrix + arrangement. A thing I've always wanted in Live, but never received...
• Bounce In Place -- the simple little rendering tool that Ableton has ignored for a decade or more...
https://tvhwy.bandcamp.com/releases - classic IDM by TV HWY
www.dwifh.com - old-school industrial music by DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER

KVRAF
6263 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:01 am

mholloway wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:53 am
This is purely personal. For me it's this back and forth between Ableton and Bitwig. I'm sure many others struggle with this like I do, though. Each has very particular strengths and very particular weaknesses; so it goes. Of course, at the end of the day, I can successfully make (potentially 'great') music with either one. But, we're here because the details are important to us.

Reasons I want to use ABLETON:
• The factory FX are incredibly good, and always useful on a regular, every-day basis. I cannot say the same about Bitwig's FX.
• The piano roll is visually clear and fast to use. Bitwig's roll bizarrely makes the notes a pale color, they look 'secondary' to everything around them when they should be the primary focus element, and for whatever reason editing is always, always, slower than it is in Live, even after plenty of 'experience' with it.
• The Warping works as advertised and 99% of the time does what I want, without needing further fiddling. Cannot say the same about Bitwig's, unfortunately.
• I don't feel compelled to dump money into it on an annual basis

Reasons I want to use BITWIG:
• The Modulators, of course! The max stuff in ableton can't touch this, not even close. Just the fact that max devices take absolute control of parameters (the parameters can't be modified after you've assigned control to the max modulator) vs Bitwig's far superior approach of applying relative modulation (so the parameter can still be tweaked, as usual) is a Night and Day difference, wherein Bitwig wins, wins, wins.
• The Grid -- stacks up fine against the mighty Operator and Wavetable, which are excellent, but nowhere near as deep, of course.
• The side-by-side matrix + arrangement. A thing I've always wanted in Live, but never received...
• Bounce In Place -- the simple little rendering tool that Ableton has ignored for a decade or more...
I agree with all of this, Live 11 complicates things further by adding comping...but Bitwig will no doubt come hot and hard with their next version soon adding stuff that Live doesn't have- If you suffer from FOMO you are doomed! :dog:
PC, BWS, Live and Studio One, Renoise, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths + Eurorack, MPC Live, A4 and RYTM, PT, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses

KVRAF
3095 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:06 am

but just because the relative controlling the min/max ranges can be set only graphically
Image

so this workflow not working in it (AFAIK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-SfKGJOTTw
at least can't be reproduced so easily
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

KVRist
469 posts since 19 Oct, 2020

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:47 am

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:20 am
Reefius wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:49 am
Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.
You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.
That's wrong. You can buy the update at a sale (for e.g. 10.5) and activate that later (and get 11). Same as you can do with Bitwig.

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KVRAF
18000 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:17 pm

ReleaseCandidate wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:47 am
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:20 am
Reefius wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:49 am
Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.
You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.
That's wrong. You can buy the update at a sale (for e.g. 10.5) and activate that later (and get 11). Same as you can do with Bitwig.
So if you have 10.5, you can buy 11 on sale before it is released?

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