from REAPER to ABLETON (one big disappointment)

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRAF
3104 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:49 pm
Single thread performance matters in EVERY DAW. Not just Live.

The main thing is, Reaper is doing something Live isn't, which is called processing ahead of time (anticipative processing). This utilized your CPU much better.
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059663
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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KVRAF
7537 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:46 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:50 pm
Adjust mouse modifiers to your taste.
I wonder how many potential users Reaper loses by not adhering to industry standards when it comes to shortucts, modifiers, etc. My experience was really soured by things working (very) weirdly out-of-the-box.

Perhaps they should change the defaults if it's so easy?
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
485 posts since 19 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:51 am

xbitz wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:49 pm
Single thread performance matters in EVERY DAW. Not just Live.

The main thing is, Reaper is doing something Live isn't, which is called processing ahead of time (anticipative processing). This utilized your CPU much better.
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059663
Yes, multithreading is a concept most people, including developers, don't understand, in reality it's way more complex than the people think it is (and I'm not talking about lock free algorithms).
Nowadays the same happens with GPU processing too.

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KVRAF
7537 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:22 am

xbitz wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:49 pm
Single thread performance matters in EVERY DAW. Not just Live.

The main thing is, Reaper is doing something Live isn't, which is called processing ahead of time (anticipative processing). This utilized your CPU much better.
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059663
In light of that discussion, I wonder how Bitwig differs - from dev perspective - compared to Live?

It's often seen as the better one in terms of CPU performance and multi-threading in particular. It's definitely not because of sandboxing (as pointed out) and I find it hard to believe that Live forces into a single thread 2+ otherwise independent tracks that go through the same return tracks.
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
485 posts since 19 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:36 am

antic604 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:22 am
xbitz wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:49 pm
Single thread performance matters in EVERY DAW. Not just Live.

The main thing is, Reaper is doing something Live isn't, which is called processing ahead of time (anticipative processing). This utilized your CPU much better.
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059663
In light of that discussion, I wonder how Bitwig differs - from dev perspective - compared to Live?
It's often seen as the better one in terms of CPU performance and multi-threading in particular.
I guess because of their stricter routing rules they have less complex audio paths to process and can easier decide if something is save (independent) to compute in parallel.

antic604 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:22 am
It's definitely not because of sandboxing (as pointed out) and I find it hard to believe that Live forces into a single thread 2+ otherwise independent tracks that go through the same return tracks.
Live doesn't do that, I (and other people) would have noticed yet I guess, sending many tracks to one aux channel isn't that uncommon.

KVRAF
5681 posts since 9 Jul, 2002 from Helsinki

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:00 am

xbitz wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:49 pm
Single thread performance matters in EVERY DAW. Not just Live.

The main thing is, Reaper is doing something Live isn't, which is called processing ahead of time (anticipative processing). This utilized your CPU much better.
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059663
It's just a fancy word for adding high latency to your playback controls (play/stop). There is a noticeable lag when starting and stopping your track, which doesn't exist in Live. Reaper buffers the audio stream to compensate for it's inefficient code. Turn off the "Anticipative Processing" to see how bad it actually is in terms of CPU efficiency.

Now this lag trick can be useful when you are mixing and have a bad habit of mixing plugin tracks instead of audio, but for tracking it's horrrendous, and messes up with PDC and timing accuracy of MIDI recording.

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KVRAF
21219 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:19 am

That's a load of bullcrap :)

Anticipative processing doesn't mess up PDC nor does it apply to recording live MIDI inputs (armed tracks). All DAWs do media buffering to some extent otherwise you'd have glitch city. Also note that buffering audio is not the same thing as anticipative processing. Also, anticipative processing is not a trick to compensate for inefficient code. It's a feature!

Show me a DAW that supports 128 CPU cores natively and as efficiently. Is there any other? But of course there isn't!
antic604 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:46 am
I wonder how many potential users Reaper loses by not adhering to industry standards when it comes to shortucts, modifiers, etc. My experience was really soured by things working (very) weirdly out-of-the-box.
There are no "industry standards" really. Most DAWs have wildly different shortcuts for any number of standard editing actions... Of course, PT is not flexible at all here since you can't even change any shortcuts, it's their way or highway. But compare shortcuts between PT, Cubase, Logic, Live, it's all wildly different for the most part, I guess the only thing in common is using spacebar to start/stop transport. :D

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KVRAF
7537 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:41 am

ReleaseCandidate wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:36 am
I guess because of their stricter routing rules they have less complex audio paths to process and can easier decide if something is save (independent) to compute in parallel.
Yeah, that would make sense. Limited feedback options and inability to (easily) modulate anything by anything would indeed make parallelisation easier, as things are more 'predictable' that way.

ReleaseCandidate wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:36 am
Live doesn't do that, I (and other people) would have noticed yet I guess, sending many tracks to one aux channel isn't that uncommon.
You're right. Just tested it with 3 CPU-heavy tracks totalling at 75% DSP and then sent them through a CPU-heavy reverb return. No difference. :party:

U-He makes such quick tests very easy ;) :D
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
70 posts since 14 Jan, 2020

Post Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:03 pm

.jon wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:00 am
It's just a fancy word for adding high latency to your playback controls (play/stop). There is a noticeable lag when starting and stopping your track, which doesn't exist in Live. Reaper buffers the audio stream to compensate for it's inefficient code. Turn off the "Anticipative Processing" to see how bad it actually is in terms of CPU efficiency.

Now this lag trick can be useful when you are mixing and have a bad habit of mixing plugin tracks instead of audio, but for tracking it's horrrendous, and messes up with PDC and timing accuracy of MIDI recording.
ED already said it, but it's worth repeating since people might see the thumbs up on your post and assume you have any idea what you're talking about: this is a load of bullcrap. all DAWs buffer audio output, anticipative FX processing is not the same as this buffer and doesn't 'compensate' for anything, it doesn't affect PDC or MIDI timing in any way, it works fine while tracking as it doesn't affect record-monitored tracks, and if you don't like the small added delay when starting/stopping playback you can turn it off

KVRist
485 posts since 19 Oct, 2020

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:16 am

This is now my official 'complain about Reaper'-thread! :D
The docks and toolbars have significantly less docking and enabling/disabling options than in Samplitude.
But the customized MIDI editor is usable now :wink:

KVRist

Topic Starter

112 posts since 28 Feb, 2007

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:27 pm

ReleaseCandidate wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:16 am
This is now my official 'complain about Reaper'-thread! :D
The docks and toolbars have significantly less docking and enabling/disabling options than in Samplitude.
But the customized MIDI editor is usable now :wink:
OP here. Feel free to express yourself 😊

KVRist

Topic Starter

112 posts since 28 Feb, 2007

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:32 pm

Just one thing about my current relationship with Ableton and Reaper: I bought Push 2 and didn't start up Reaper since the time I started this thread. I'm sorry to all Reapers... 😉

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KVRAF
7537 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:37 pm

boriskarloff wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:32 pm
Just one thing about my current relationship with Ableton and Reaper: I bought Push 2 and didn't start up Reaper since the time I started this thread. I'm sorry to all Reapers... 😉
Nice! :party: :clap:

You'll be happy to learn this:

http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Reaper/Reaper.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlXQribt7KQ
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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KVRAF
29288 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:44 pm

boriskarloff wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:32 pm
Just one thing about my current relationship with Ableton and Reaper: I bought Push 2 and didn't start up Reaper since the time I started this thread. I'm sorry to all Reapers... 😉
:hihi:

KVRist
485 posts since 19 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:53 am

The more I use Reaper the more limitations I encounter. It's API is same limited as the ones from Tracktion's Waveform or Cakewalk (but you can at least use Python, Lua or C++ instead of CAL. Yes, I love Emacs, but would prefer some ML dialect).
That's also why many user extension are hacks around this limitations (Reaticulate or retrospective record or...). You can't even colorize the rows in the MIDI editor per note.
So Reaper's scripting really is is 'only' better macros, no real interface to internal dáta, so no chance to get non-hacked extensions.
But at least the key command menu is better than in Cakewalk, which has the most braindead implementation of a keybinding menu of any program that I know of.
So: great for audio with your custom scripts/macros, I still prefer Samplitude together with Soundforge though. For MIDI: Cakewalk is about the samé (and is also lacking retrospective record) but has articulation maps and actually colors your piano roll when using scales instead of just the keys. Or Live 11, if you want a MIDI editor that has exactly the features you need in a way that's not configurable in Reaper (you can't context sensitivly change the mouse actions to get the pointer as 'smart' as with Live, I still too often erratically generate a note).
If Bandlab would add an alternative (Python or Lua) to the (deprecated) CAL scripting and an official documentation instead of http://dgcardenas.fpmit.com/cal/...

So, tl;dr: really disappointed about the limited scripting customizability and limited docking cababilities of Reaper. One of the few programs I'd actually change the source code of if possible, out of frustration of missed opportunities.
The problem is you know you can't (except using M4L, so actually you can do the samé as with Reaper) change anything in Live, but in Reaper I always find some limitation whenever I want to really change or add something.

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