Tal J-8

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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KVRAF
21217 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:17 am

Personally I don't think it's a very useful limitation. But maybe it could be an additional mode?

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KVRAF

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9958 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:18 am

My vote is to allow it to do its thing without the limitation.
That is don't let the range be reduced if you play in the higher octaves.
rsp
sound sculptist

KVRist
180 posts since 2 May, 2007 from Swiss

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:39 am

Thanks for the feedback. I will try to add a switch.
Togu Audio Line
http://kunz.corrupt.ch/

KVRist
246 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:05 am

ToguAudioLine wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:12 am
Thanks for the arp hint. We totally missed that. Thought it's the same like the Juno 60 has.
I did a couple experiments today to try to pin down exactly how the arp works. It's pretty intricate when you look into the details. Turns out the UP, DOWN, and UP+DOWN mode also applies to the note order, and this (combined with the fact that all of these modes respond to the order you played the notes) is what makes the JP-8 arp so interesting.

For example, if you play the following notes in this order: C3, G3, D3, E3…

In UP mode, 1 octave, the sequence you played will simply repeat.

In DOWN mode, 1 octave, that sequence will play in reverse order: E3, D3, G3, C3.

In UP+DOWN mode, 1 octave, the sequence plays forward, then backwards (first and last notes are bold): C3, G3, D3, E3, D3, G3 (repeat). It does not repeat the first or last note.

When you switch to 2 or more octaves, it follows the same behavior as above while cycling through octaves in the selected direction. It does not repeat the first or last note in the overall sequence.

If it helps, I can record the MIDI output for each of these scenarios and provide MIDI files so you have a visual (piano roll) reference.
Stormchild

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KVRAF
21217 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:19 am

Basically, up/down/up&down modes on Jupiter-8 are a weird combination of "as played" and sorted note input buffers.

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DuX
KVRAF
3794 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Underworld

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:31 am

Jupiter-4 Arp works the same. I loved the way it worked, a little bit unpredictable, so it can often give you interesting creative ideas. I used to sample whole sequences from JP-4 due to the unique way it works. :tu:

It is really the best solution to have the best of both worlds. :)
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

9958 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:35 am

Arashi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:05 am
...
If it helps, I can record the MIDI output for each of these scenarios and provide MIDI files so you have a visual (piano roll) reference.
I am curious, on the system 8 what happens if you play what would be the highest octave on the jp-8 and set it to two or more octaves up, does it sound those octaves or it maxes out at one octave on those?
rsp
sound sculptist

KVRist
246 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:40 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:19 am
Basically, up/down/up&down modes on Jupiter-8 are a weird combination of "as played" and sorted note input buffers.
That's a good description.
DuX wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:31 am
Jupiter-4 Arp works the same. I loved the way it worked, a little bit unpredictable, so it can often give you interesting creative ideas. I used to sample whole sequences from JP-4 due to the unique way it works. :tu:

It is really the best solution to have the best of both worlds. :)
Didn't know that about the JP-4. Now I'm wondering if the JP-6 works like this too.

Anyway yeah…as awkward as it is to explain why it's different and interesting, if you just play with it, it's immediately fun and engaging. I really want to shake the hand of whoever came up with this, especially since it was introduced way back when arpeggiators were still pretty novel and didn't need to do anything special to stand out. I wonder if Roland actually got complaints that it doesn't work properly because of the unique behavior.
Stormchild

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

9958 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:44 am

That the Juno 60 doesn't seem to work that way, maybe indeed they got complaints.
rsp
sound sculptist

KVRist
246 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:55 am

zvenx wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:35 am
I am curious, on the system 8 what happens if you play what would be the highest octave on the jp-8 and set it to two or more octaves up, does it sound those octaves or it maxes out at one octave on those?
Just tested it. I set it to UP mode, 4 octaves, and transposed the keyboard +3 octaves. What it does is constrain the octave shift so it repeats the highest octave.

If I play the middle C (C6), it plays C6, C7, C8, C8.
If I play the second highest C (C7), it plays C7, C8, C8, C8.
If I play the highest C (C8), it just repeats C8, C8, C8, C8. (This is true for all modes and ranges.)

If I change the range to 3 octaves:

(C6) C6, C7, C8
(C7) C7, C8, C8

In UP+DOWN mode, 4 octaves:

(C6) C6, C7, C8, C8, C8, C7 (…repeat)
(C7) C7, C8, C8, C8, C8, C8 (…repeat)

I think in all cases it's helpful to think of it as playing C9, C10, etc., but those don't exist, so they get clamped to the highest possible note, C8. This explains the number of repeats of the highest note.

I believe (but would have to do a bit more testing to be sure) when you play notes other than C, it clamps to the highest octave of that note (not to the highest possible note) — otherwise every out-of-bounds arpeggio would repeat C8.
Stormchild

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

9958 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:59 am

Thanks, ok, so it does in the system 8 surpasses what would be the highest note on a Jupiter 8, which I would imagine to be more C7.
rsp
sound sculptist

KVRist
246 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:06 am

zvenx wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:44 am
That the Juno 60 doesn't seem to work that way, maybe indeed they got complaints.
Yeah, this is plausible. If they decided to keep the Jupiter mode around as an option, what on earth would you call that option? (Well, I suppose they could just call it "Jupiter mode" and let people wonder what that actually means.) Probably easier to just drop it and make the arpeggiator work like most people expect it to.

Another possibility is the CPU in the lower cost synths didn't have enough registers to support the advanced behavior, or the ROM didn't have enough space for the routine.
Stormchild

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KVRAF
21217 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:07 am

WTH, middle C is either C3 (Germany), or C4 (most of the world) or C5 (older Roland but more recently they use C4 IIRC, FL Studio). Never heard middle C being referred to as C6!

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KVRAF
21217 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:08 am

Arashi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:06 am
Another possibility is the CPU in the lower cost synths didn't have enough registers to support the advanced behavior, or the ROM didn't have enough space for the routine.
Doubt it. They already have the note buffer, it's a matter of quicksorting it. Even a Z80 can do that :D

KVRist
246 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan

Post Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:08 am

zvenx wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:59 am
Thanks, ok, so it does in the system 8 surpasses what would be the highest note on a Jupiter 8, which I would imagine to be more C7.
I'm out of time for today, but I can record the MIDI output to confirm the actual notes produced by various tests tomorrow.
Stormchild

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