Anything and everything about MIDI - arp, mapper, mangler, generator, chorder, controller, utility, fx etc.

[UncleAge]

<snip>
The problem is, that with all the event-order stuff, it's very tedious and not something I would ever want do on the fly, even less in a live situation.
<snip>
Sorry for the rants, as you were...

Cheers,

Tom

The event order problem was the brick wall for me in M4L. It took the fun out of it. This (and feedback loops) may be one of the snags that is slowing down the Bitwig devs from getting midi implemented in the grid the right way.

Also, the rants are a good thing. It's helps to know that others are thinking about these things as well. And maybe, just maybe, some of the devs might read a few of the rants.

[Kalamata Kid]

I just remembered that the Reason Rack Plugin has midi out. After watching this video again, and remembering that I also have the Delta Midi Computer Rack Extension (along with the Players and a wide variety of CV randomization and generation tools), this setup could keep me busy for years:

I checked out Delta and Midi Lab for possible purchase.

Delta MIDI Computer - MIDI Swiss Army Knife
https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... -computer/
search.php?keywords=delta&t=517113&sf=msgonly

Midi Lab is a Swiss army knife
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/midi-lab-by-soundigy
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... 1&start=15

I decided to wait for Architect to see what it will offer. When Colin releases the presets or patches and can see its capabilities I will then decide what to do. I am confident that Architect will offer a lot more than either but will it be easy enough to use. I will wait. Yes, the wait will be longer than anticipated.

If any one wants to do a comparison of the Delta MIDI Computer and the Midi Lab it would be great.

BlueCat Patchwork vs Plogue Bidule for midi fx:
viewtopic.php?t=505060

[ThomasHelzle]

Thanks guys for the positive response to my rant

Midi Lab looked more like an advanced patchbay to me when I first looked at it, less geared towards generative things. But since it has scripting nodes, it may be worth another look - thanks for the reminder.

I don't want to go Reason to be honest, somehow it never clicked for me, even when I scripted and partially designed the GUIs for the u-he Uhbik REs, where I dove rather deeply into it. And all the REs being relatively expensive, it felt like another money-sink, although some of them look pretty cool...

As for the event-order: It would be super interesting to have a sit-in with some devs who thoroughly understand the issues together with some people from this thread and see if there would be a way to structure these things somehow differently and more intuitively.
On one hand you have code, where the event order is implicit in the order you do things in the code. That to me is very intuitive.
On the other hand you have nodes, which in themselves have a visual order, but as soon as you have several streams in parallel (like when you split out notes from everything else) you have to makes sure stuff arrives in the right order. And there starts the pain.

Now what I wonder is, if it wouldn't make sense to have a kind of structure, where you define certain groups of nodes as "one function", as if it would be code and that group would be compiled into one command that is computed as one block with no internal delays involved, everything is virtually simultaneous. (SideFX Houdini - my personal node-heaven even allows to surround a couple of nodes with a "compile block" so these nodes in fact get compiled into one block of code together).
This structure as opposed to the current way, where each and every node needs attention regarding events separately, even a single number in a data node can be "wrong".

Another option I see in a very graphical way to show event order.
The visual node tool "Cables.gl" has a switch, that makes all the cables show their "transport speed" as dotted moving lines. So cables that transport a lot of stuff (huge arrays for example) move fast compared to normal wires.
So if I take that principle and move it to Midi, combine it with colours (like a gradient that spans the whole node graph and basically represents a timeline with one single direction and defines, that "everything at this position is evaluated first, then this, then this", it should be much more brain-friendly and intuitive.
Basically a visual layer added to the node graph that makes it so clear what happens when, that you can almost forget about it, since it somehow is logically implicit in a spatial way.

While Architect also has a left-right and up-down direction, the resulting order of events is still not logical or intuitive, since even individual inputs of one node need to have a certain order. I think that is the final killer for me personally. I am thinking about nothing but event order instead of patching away happily...

I also feel that the very very long time when Colin coded away more or less alone did probably not help the project. I'd rather have seen an open Alpha and Beta, where things weren't as locked down as they are now and the structure would have evolved together with the community. I believe deeply in communication, so I'm always wary of people who vanish into their cave for very long with not external input and then resurface with something they think is great but that often isn't directly connected with peoples reality or what the community actually wants.
The most extreme example is Imitone, where the dev noodles away for ages on his ultimate audio to midi stuff, while the only version of the tool that really works for musicians, the VST2, still doesn't even have a GUI - and even that took years and years to surface.
Colin is far from being that deluded, but still is more on the silent cave type side than the "happily chatting with the crowd about how to do things"-sort.

And yeah, Event Order may be the reason why there is no Midi in the Bitwig Grid yet. It's funny that "CVs" are so much more simple in this realm since they are instantaneous, and the "digital" Midi is so clumsy - very often it's the other way around with data.

I'm really curious if anybody will be able to really nail this and take the pain out of it.
Bitwig has done some real wonders in the past, so my bet would be on them to get it right.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tj Shredder]

I am so used to deal with event order in Max, its second nature to me. If in doubt you can use triggers and even move things back in the processing queue with defer or deferlow if necessary. I would never want to go solely back to lines of code programming.
I’d like to hear opinions about MidiLab vs. Bidule...
I recently watched a video about Soul. Funnily you get a nodes view, but can’t patch in there. When they allow this I might switch to Juce by programming in Soul...; - )

[David]

Any Reaktor users here tried this?:

https://www.seqsual.com

(Sorry if I missed some other posts about it)

[David]

I actually would be rather happy to have something like Falcons internal Lua scripting as a standalone plugin. That's really clear and well thought out, simple but effective.
Bummer Falcon doesn't output Midi...
Funny company that, UVI...

Whatever happened to vstlua? It was basically that iirc (not sure how well it worked...)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=196899&start=225

https://www.osar.fr/protoplug/

Would love to hear more about this, too.

[killmaster]

Any Reaktor users here tried this?:

https://www.seqsual.com

(Sorry if I missed some other posts about it)

wow, this looks very promising. will keep an eye on it and downloading the demo.

[killmaster]

^^^
Speaking of which, I've really been liking the results I get from using Ioniarics and Cality on IOS. Sometime in conjunction with each other. I send the resulting MIDI to Bitwig on my Desktop.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ioniarics/id1473268015
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cality/id1448694455

[Kalamata Kid]

Any Reaktor users here tried this?:

https://www.seqsual.com

(Sorry if I missed some other posts about it)

Interesting!
Tempting! $19.99 at
https://www.adsrsounds.com/product/soft ... nstrument/

Edit: Ignore this post! My mistake. David's post below explains.

[Kalamata Kid]

^^^
Speaking of which, I've really been liking the results I get from using Ioniarics and Cality on IOS. Sometime in conjunction with each other. I send the resulting MIDI to Bitwig on my Desktop.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ioniarics/id1473268015
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cality/id1448694455

I have the iConnectmidi2+ so I can get midi out from these apps to my DAW.

[Kalamata Kid]

I checked David’s video one more time and concluded that I must get the Rapid Composer on the next $119 sale.

RC V3 Manual http://www.musicdevelopments.com/manualv3.pdf

I like the “midi manipulation” I believe is in the Composition tab. I understand that RC has more features but it is the midi Variations I see in the video that I am most interested in at least for the moment.

I do wonder what other plugin/stand-alone has as similar capability.

More interested in midi editing, manipulations or getting variations from a midi data preferably in real-time. I want to experiment with classical music midi files and see what variations I can produce especially in the ambient style.

[David]

^^^
Speaking of which, I've really been liking the results I get from using Ioniarics and Cality on IOS. Sometime in conjunction with each other. I send the resulting MIDI to Bitwig on my Desktop.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ioniarics/id1473268015
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cality/id1448694455

They do look interesting, Greg, thanks:)
How exactly are you integrating IOS apps with your desktop MIDI tools and/or hardware, if you are?

[David]

Any Reaktor users here tried this?:

https://www.seqsual.com

(Sorry if I missed some other posts about it)

Interesting!
Tempting! $19.99 at
https://www.adsrsounds.com/product/soft ... nstrument/

I enjoyed exploring Wavemod on YT, but it's a Reaktor synth, not at all the same thing as Seqsual, as your post seems to me to imply since your link goes to it, nor is Seqsual available from ADSR. Did I misread you?

It's €36.00 direct.

[David]

<snip>
I like the “midi manipulation” I believe is in the Composition tab. I understand that RC has more features but it is the midi Variations I see in the video that I am most interested in at least for the moment.

I do wonder what other plugin/stand-alone has as similar capability.
<snip>

Me, too! Haven't ever found anything even really similar.

[Kalamata Kid]

Any Reaktor users here tried this?:

https://www.seqsual.com

(Sorry if I missed some other posts about it)

Interesting!
Tempting! $19.99 at
https://www.adsrsounds.com/product/soft ... nstrument/

I enjoyed exploring Wavemod on YT, but it's a Reaktor synth, not at all the same thing as Seqsual, as your post seems to me to imply since your link goes to it, nor is Seqsual available from ADSR. Did I misread you?

It's €36.00 direct.

Got things really screwed up.
I will check where I went wrong.
What was I thinking?