Algoritm - FM synth for Reason Rack, EUR109

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRAF
1692 posts since 28 Sep, 2012

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:18 pm

Atlatnesiti wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:10 pm
gentleclockdivider wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:43 am
This has nothing to with emulating a dx7 .
And that is the best thing about it :)
You’re taking that quote out of context. GCD’s main point, I believe, are on the use of level/rate.

KVRist
315 posts since 4 May, 2019

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:24 pm

antic604 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:45 am
Anosou wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:24 am
We did add...
There's also quite a few ways to get...
+ one can take any CV signal from elsewhere in the Rack (or outside of it, too) and patch it into Algoritm via CV Inputs on the back and then use Mod Matrix to map it to something. Page #33 onwards in the very good User Manual:

https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/medi ... Manual.pdf

I'd say lack of modulation options is a non-issue with Reason :party:
Cv mod is always mono/all voice, though. That’s pretty different than per voice. Reason has always had a weird mono vs poly architecture issue. I would like to see them go all out on MPE and polyphonic modulators (a la VCV and Voltage) it would be amazing

KVRist
315 posts since 4 May, 2019

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:01 pm

Downloaded (always really grateful for the nice 30 day try out for REs -- very good service, that.)

And... this interface is world class. Amazing design and usability. This feels like an answer to Phaseplant and I guess to some degree it is. It is much more accessible and usable and inviting (to my eye) than Phaseplant, and it has a very nice set of presets. But -- I have to say that after four hours of working with it that it is strongest when it is being an FM synth (plucks, bell tones, etc) and the other stuff isn't as strong. I love Complex and Granular and Europa... all great synths. This is a good synth in my view. It is still hard to program (even if it has been made as easy as possible by the GUI and design) and it has a limited palate... so, another FM synth. It might just be that after having FMs as my only sound sources in the 80s I've had my fill.

That said -- the introduction of the unison mode and the shaper operator are very welcome... I can get some very nice sounds this way. It is def worth taking for a 30 day spin.

Suggestion to the devs -- throw us 8 macro knobs! If I had macro knobs available to use in the mod matrix with the presets set up with some of them pre-wired for some variation I think that this instrument would really sing. I know that I can set these up with a knob-RE and CV work on the back, but I think you see my point. Now that you have a lot of users interacting with your stuff with other DAWs, 8 macros is something that those users might find really attractive. I wish I had the same with Complex pretty much every time I use it.

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KVRist
147 posts since 3 Dec, 2019

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:05 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne-dg4m-mnw&t=3798s

I should probably post these as I'm doing them, but I streamed Algoritm today
I actually really liked it and will probably consider buying it

a few things that really stand out
1, the mod matrix is freely assignable including feedback, the only real downside here is is that FM depth is controlled at the op level, and not by routing, this is a key distinction between algoritm and something like sytrus or fm8, where each routing can have it's own depth

2, 9 ops is amazing, you can think of this as 3 rows of 3 op, or a 3 osc synth with wave folder and filter per osc, there's a lot of different ways to configure this synth

3, which brings me to wavefolder and filter as operators, this is really cool, being able to shape your operator signal before it hits the carrier is so nice, especially with resonant filters. I only wish there were combs or some more fun filter types here

4, there's some unique mod matrix options, for one each operator has it's own envelope, these envelopes can all be individually retriggered via the mod matrix. Another fun mod matrix item is the unison index, which changes whatever value it's routed to per each unison voice, making Algoritm a sort of stripped down version of Aparillo

over all this synth sounds great and my only real criticisms are that it has the same fx setup as most of the other reason synths and somewhat of a boring modulation system, but given that it lives in the reason ecosystem, these issues are mitigated by other modules in the reason rack
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KVRist
367 posts since 28 Jul, 2006

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm

Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.

KVRAF
1681 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:23 pm

briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.
the original DX7 had Rate-Level envelopes -- four levels, each with a rate. So, eight controls total for a single envelope, instead of the usual 4. Look at the Dexed interface for an example: each env has 8 knobs, stacked 4 and 4. The flow is like, "set a rate to reach this level" x 4. Look up "dx7 envelopes" for the details.
Plenty of FM synths since then have used ADSRs instead, but apparently some folks are offended by this.
I learned how to use rate-level envelopes and my conclusion was: this isn't really all that useful, just give me an ADSR.
If someone who swears by them can post a patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears....at present, I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing.
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KVRAF
1648 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:50 pm

mholloway wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:23 pm
briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.
the original DX7 had Rate-Level envelopes -- four levels, each with a rate. So, eight controls total for a single envelope, instead of the usual 4. Look at the Dexed interface for an example: each env has 8 knobs, stacked 4 and 4. The flow is like, "set a rate to reach this level" x 4. Look up "dx7 envelopes" for the details.
Plenty of FM synths since then have used ADSRs instead, but apparently some folks are offended by this.
I learned how to use rate-level envelopes and my conclusion was: this isn't really all that useful, just give me an ADSR.
If someone who swears by them can post a patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears....at present, I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing.
with rate-level envelopes you can create evolving sounds, they can drastically, or smoothly change over time. envelopes create the FM sound, for me. almost. it is bit of an overstatement or not..

i believe there must That Such Thing, envelopes have a great impact on sound, ADR, AHDSR, ADSR, or MSEG, or rate-level, etc. but as always, i can be wrong.
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KVRAF
32435 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:26 am

Noumena wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:01 pm
Suggestion to the devs -- throw us 8 macro knobs! If I had macro knobs available to use in the mod matrix with the presets set up with some of them pre-wired for some variation I think that this instrument would really sing. I know that I can set these up with a knob-RE and CV work on the back, but I think you see my point. Now that you have a lot of users interacting with your stuff with other DAWs, 8 macros is something that those users might find really attractive. I wish I had the same with Complex pretty much every time I use it.
Why not just use a Combinator?

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KVRist
154 posts since 21 Nov, 2013

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:29 am

In parallel with Algoritm, another new and no less interesting FM synthesizer was released: WTFM Wavetable FM Synthesizer:
https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... nthesizer/

KVRAF
20702 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:40 am

mholloway wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:23 pm
briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.
the original DX7 had Rate-Level envelopes -- four levels, each with a rate. So, eight controls total for a single envelope, instead of the usual 4. Look at the Dexed interface for an example: each env has 8 knobs, stacked 4 and 4. The flow is like, "set a rate to reach this level" x 4. Look up "dx7 envelopes" for the details.
Plenty of FM synths since then have used ADSRs instead, but apparently some folks are offended by this.
I learned how to use rate-level envelopes and my conclusion was: this isn't really all that useful, just give me an ADSR.
If someone who swears by them can post a patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears....at present, I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing.
That would certainly be an easy challenge, since the Yamaha DX envelopes are without any doubt factually far more versatile.

Having said that, I strongly disagree that they become even just nearly as intuitively useable as simple ADSRs once you have used them for a bit - at least for most of us mere mortals that's really not the case, I would assume - that claim is mho really absurd - one always/constantly has to look at or at least think of such a cheat sheet in order to get one's head around it:

Image

While it is easy enough to comprehend, it simply is not at all intuitive - by design and concept.
Plus they're nor really musical either. In fact they're the only thing I really dislike about my beloved Reface DX.
Add a curve control to both the attack and the release plus an additional hold parameter after the attack and you will end up with sometzhing that is both a lot more intuitively useable and musical than Yamaha's piss-poor first attempt at coming up with more flexible envelopes.
So yeah: I think it's lamentable that Algoritm envelopes aren't any better than simple ADSR, however I certainly think that the DX envelopes would be the poorest solution they could come up with.
Last edited by jens on Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
20702 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:44 am

Now something entirely different:

Why on earth do the Props all of a sudden keep coming up with instruments (at premium prices) that feature no audio-ins? And especially those that would really offer new and different and interesting possibilities in that regard? They got that bit right in the past and all of a sudden they stopped doing it? What gives?

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Suspended
4029 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:56 am

Double post again
Last edited by gentleclockdivider on Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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4029 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:58 am

Double post
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Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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4029 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:02 am

mholloway wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:23 pm
briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.
the original DX7 had Rate-Level envelopes -- four levels, each with a rate. So, eight controls total for a single envelope, instead of the usual 4. Look at the Dexed interface for an example: each env has 8 knobs, stacked 4 and 4. The flow is like, "set a rate to reach this level" x 4. Look up "dx7 envelopes" for the details.
Plenty of FM synths since then have used ADSRs instead, but apparently some folks are offended by this.
I learned how to use rate-level envelopes and my conclusion was: this isn't really all that useful, just give me an ADSR.
If someone who swears by them can post a patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears....at present, I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing.
With a standard adsr the modulation amnount is controlled bu the operator output level ( multiplied by adsr ) , you release will always FADE to zero , fading starts from the sustain level ( only level in adsr )
With a level / rate envelope you can have a release level from zero(sustain) to max level release , iow it will never fade out .

That’s just one example of what you can do with a rate / level
Yes such thing :lol
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Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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4029 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:06 am

And for those wondering. , the rate segments on the yamaha’s are exponential .. and not linear . , just the picture/ legends show linear stages ( which is for clarity’s sake ).
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Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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