KVR Audio

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:52 pm

Well, I am not competent to make up my own musical language or adjust Fux's mistakes, semantically or in practise. Knud Jeppesen already has adjusted Fux, but he did not provide a new educational system, just some corrections to his species. I have a few quarrels with Fux myself, but I have to recognize that he was a great teacher, and I think he deserved his influence on e.g. Mozart and Bach as one of the first authors of a music theory book. My use here is for practical purposes only, nothing else and certainly not a promotion of some ideology behind it. Me and my band-mate litterally break all his rules ourselves to get a pre-Fux medieval sound. So forget Fux, this was just his system in use for the reason that it is still usable as an easy way into some (conventional) structures of chords.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:55 pm

conventional wisdom often isn't

the convention for bebop is 'tonicize every known thing by ii-V-ing it' and 'make a tritone equivalence if you can for that dominant by this here structure (lose that P5*)' because chromaticism is desirable. At one time, a *parallel fifth was undesirable. At one time thirds in a final harmony was a no-go. If your basis is metal, parallel power chords are conventional.
Conventions are conventions only comparatively.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:06 pm

"E. g. major and minor for a happy and a sad chord."
well, the major vs minor third is said to determine 'the quality' of the chord, ie., major or minor quality. So with the "2 chord" that is elided (or deprecated as a barrier). So I was at the same time looking for something else and working hard at being a master part-writer in the chromatic tonal ways (which ultimately gave way in a sense, after composers found other methodologies can work, serial dodecaphony subequent to eg., Schoenberg's Transfigured Night).

I would caution against prescribing something concrete or always real to the things at this juncture, albeit historically that kind of poetic has been taken seriously (as well as keys having their own whole world/other keys not so much but having these other [extramusical] attributes).
Major can be quite tragic sounding.

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:27 pm

jancivil wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:55 pm conventional wisdom often isn't

It is always usable for some purpose. We had to make a contribution to a Reason synth contest very fast. I took the composer steer wheel. We chose 5/8 to make it sound a little odd and off we went. I came up with 8 measures of melody and 4 measures of chorus. Two themes only. I made the piece by spitting out so many trivialities within composition that it almost made me feel sick. And yes, the V-i found its way into it too and that is usually not the deal in pre-Fux music. Well, I have never worked so fast before, but I was glad to find out I could if just closed down my musical conscience and let all the cheap composer trick flow from my a....well, anyway, when I am not busy, I love old wisdom of music and take time to explore it, so I am not allergic to conventions, on the contrary, but I chose the conventions I want to follow, and that is what is important to me. Music does not chose me, I chose music.

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:54 pm

juno987654321 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:50 pm
vurt wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:10 pm f**k fux and the horse he rode in on!
Who is "fux" vurt? I don't understand you or why he or she or it was riding a horse!

as above, old school musical educator...

the horse is irrelevant, old saying.

my point was, things have changed a lot since his day. one of them is what is accepted within "music".

to restrict ourselves based on language from an epoxy ago, seems detrimental to me.
not always obviously, but as it's been mentioned above "the power chord" doesn't match his 3rd rule.
let's say, you're a teenage kid, heavily in to metal!!! you want to learn music, at this age, classical music is for old fogies

your teacher, won't let you do, what you feel in your bones.
you get bored, start missing class, hanging out with the vagabonds instead of learning music
your dream of being a rockstar dies, you grow up to be a bank manager

educate in context to the student, bring them on board, get them hooked on "music". they will grow in time

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:54 pm

I'm not saying ignore convention at all. I hope I'm steeped in... three or more conventions, you might even call them traditions.
I'm saying the one convention is, in my view, not primary

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:00 pm

"let all the cheap composer trick flow from my a...."
that's a kind of getting out of your own way. I resisted 'simple moves' which sound fantastic for far too long in favor of, who knows, exploration.
Sometimes I have to have a definite aesthetic and stick with it, though. I remember telling someone who asked if maybe some of his (multiphonics-oriented) bassoon would be good on the record and I said "There are no bassoons in this world". Probably coulda used some of the quirmpaphonics® anyway. But bassoon has all of those connotations of the old world.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:29 pm

so much for simple answers

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:30 pm

To me, any clue that can take me from being enthralled into listening to e.g. Eurovision and feel delighted is a welcome clue to me. Likewise if it can take me away from music based on repetitive loops with rhythm and noise only but no melody, that is not for me, unless it is even more experimental and not dance music. I know what I look for in music, and no theory books or modern trends shall keep me away from it. I am not a pro, so I can pick and chose betweens the conventions I like, and even break them here and there, if I feel like it. Who's gonna tell me that "this violin arrangement was not like the minstrels played them in the year 1002", anyway? People do not give a fck about the past, so I can paint the musical picture of it I like with a few tricks (like breaking all rules of Fux). So cool. A niche where we can build our own Kingdom. I feel free.

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:42 pm

jancivil wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:54 pm I'm not saying ignore convention at all. I hope I'm steeped in... three or more conventions, you might even call them traditions.
I'm saying the one convention is, in my view, not primary

indeed. it's all useful, to someone...
finding the bits that are useful to you is the tricky bit!
hence my desire to educate in the students areas of interest first and foremost.
i get that we need some sort of common ground regarding exams, but there's a lot to do before worrying about that

one thing, op, why?
is this for some course? own desire to learn?
do you play alone or do you need to communicate this to others?

if it's just you, playing your music, i honestly wouldn't worry what things are called

ive been doing things i can't name for years, but im good at them!

there's only one rule!

does it sound good?
(good meaning "how i want it to sound")

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:44 pm

I come from a time where nonconformity in music, in the music business, was allowed to thrive. A very brief time. Then the old guys who didn't think they knew what people liked brought in the hip guy from the mailroom, since he relates to the kids and know's what's happening. "I KNOW what's happening and I'm here to make sure it continues to." doom

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:53 pm

We just counter modern trends with old trends. We make electronic music heavily based on melodies, harmonization and polyphony in an almost melodyless time if you look beyond pop music and into modern elctronic music. We emphasize old accoustic timbres as well as modern synthesized ones. We decline use of traditional bassdrums and snares and use toms, wardrums and percussions only. We know most won't like the music for these reasons also, but we enjoy making it, and not at least breaking new conventions with long forgotten ones.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:54 pm

as to names, names indicate use and a requirement in conveyance of the idea or object. For me, if there's a 'sound aggregate' which would have a very elaborate name as a chord, the naming at a point has no good purpose. The naming of chords is so built around thirds there are rather few names in currency for anything else. The more interesting things to me don't deal in chords as blocks with names.

I also can't stay with tonal music for very long, the predictability and inevitability of so many moves puts me off.

For example, there is this amazing, beyond amazing pianist (Anastasia Huppmann) who specializes in Beethoven. It's the deepest kind of performance there is, musically. But after a point, it's "oh here we go again" for me.

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:41 pm

I get such points in their own rights, but they belong to a much higher level of abstraction than trying to explain someone the basic conventions of chords over the internet. I do not find that an easy task even with a simple system at hand, and I would not dare to start with Zappa myself. And when we get to Zappa, I better leave the task to someone else, methinks. I am trained more old school in composition as craftmanship and not acadamia with all that follows of ideological, technical and philosophical debates. Composing is something I do intuitively, I do not really think that much about it. I have not opened a book in 30 years to compose, my skills have been embodied ages ago. However, if I had not studied the conventions, I certainly would not know when I break them either and would not be able to make the music I do now.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:34 pm

Zappa has literally no connection to academia. He went to the library in a junior college and studied scores (Varese, Webern, Stravinsky. Almost certainly Satie.). He called the serious music a hobby he supported doing other things (writing the stupid songs and constantly touring or producing other acts; 'ok it's time to get back on the road with an R&B band' after an excursion with teh classical world) and even eschewed the word 'art' frequently in favor of 'entertainment'. He did show a certain ideology preferring Stones to Beatles, in that they were more blues-oriented.
Or liking The Shaggs, that's ideological I think. It's so wrong it's great. I disagree with both opinions.

simple question about a term: when the same notes on different octave positions sound together